|
echo
Apr 17, 2006, 7:08 PM
Post #1 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 25, 2005
Posts: 99
|
Ok, so im going to be purchasing some gear this afternoon, and one of the items will be a daisy chain. Now my question is what caribeaners to use with one? Do i want 2 lockers? Im still rather new to climbing, so any help is appreicated.
Cheers,
Jonas
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 17, 2006, 7:14 PM
Post #2 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
Are you still thinking of getting a daisy chain for anchoring? Was that you? If so, I urge you again to reconsider. Multi-pitch anchoring not a safe use for a daisy chain.
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Apr 17, 2006, 7:17 PM
Post #3 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
In reply to: Are you still thinking of getting a daisy chain for anchoring? Was that you? If so, I urge you again to reconsider. Multi-pitch anchoring not a safe use for a daisy chain.
Yep.
|
|
|
|
|
echo
Apr 17, 2006, 7:21 PM
Post #4 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 25, 2005
Posts: 99
|
That was me, and why are you saying its so unsafe? A bunch of other people seem to think its ok. I mean, as i said before, im still learning, so teach on! If not a daisy chain, what should i be using to anchor myself on rappels?
|
|
|
|
|
tradclmbr
Apr 17, 2006, 7:32 PM
Post #5 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 4, 2002
Posts: 238
|
topic has been beat to death, but the basic answer to question is that you wouldnt want a daisy to be your only connection since each daisy loop has a low strength rating (holds body weight, more in fact, but could blow in a short static fall..........clip two loops and they blow and your off)
Though you'd probrably be fine with it 99.99 % of the time. Why would you introduce risk into a system which you are designing to reduce risk? Tie in with rope on a clove hitch, a regular sling or there is some metolius product (PAS?) designed like a daisy, but with full strength ratings on the loops.
|
|
|
|
|
jeremy11
Apr 17, 2006, 8:28 PM
Post #6 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2004
Posts: 597
|
or make your own daisy with a chunk of webbing and then tie it with a water knot to make a big loop, then put water knots on a bight in every 6 inches or so for daisy pockets close to full strength. The knots weaken it of course, but it should still be good for 10 Kn or more. Plus it is way cheaper.
Anyone know if it would work to make a sewn daisy where all the pockets are 10 Kn or more by putting 4-5 bar tacks on each side of the pockets? It seems so obvious, but no one makes one.
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 17, 2006, 8:30 PM
Post #7 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
In reply to: That was me, and why are you saying its so unsafe? A bunch of other people seem to think its ok. I mean, as i said before, im still learning, so teach on! If not a daisy chain, what should i be using to anchor myself on rappels?
For rappels? You'll probably be fine. But for belay anchors? Uhg. The major problem is that ultra-static daisy chains absorb significanly less force than less static methods. That leftover force goes onto your belay and the anchor.
Let's say you get up to your buddy's belay station and clip in with your ultra-convenient, super-adjustable daisy chain. Voila! Your anchored! Your partner takes you off belay, and then you and he busy yourselves rearranging the rack. When you're finished, you run through the calls...
"On belay?" he asks.
"Belay on," you reply.
"Climbing," he states confidently.
"Climb on!" He runs the rope through the upper piece in the anchor for a little right-off-the-belay protection, then unclips from the anchor and leads out. You're excited about this next pitch. It's the crux of the route, and notoriously, it's tricky to protect the business, which happens to come at the climber in the first couple meters.
"You got this," you prod encouragingly as your partner steps into the business. He places a micronut and slings it long to minimize drag.
"Watch me here..." he says, uncertainty creeping into his voice. His breathing increases in tempo and depth as he slaps for a sidepull up and right. He steps higher, the stopper is at his feet now. He extends to a left backhand high above his head, but as he weights it, his left foot pops. He can't stick the handhold! He barn doors and he's off! PING! The micronut fails! He's coming in hard and fast! PING! The arm of the anchor he clipped before leading off fails!
It's a factor two fall and all that's standing between you, your climber and oblivion is a completely static daisy chain! Unfortunately, when you clipped in, it was too long. So you pulled up one of the short loops and clipped it to your anchor biner to adjust. When doing so, you unwittingly UNCLIPPED the biner from the main loop. It was impossible to tell with all those little loops in between. Indeed, unless the worst case comes to pass and the rest of the daisy fails first, you'll probably never know it.
Speaking of the worst case...
Brake hand fast on the rope you brace for impact. It'll be a hard catch, but there's no way in Hell you're dropping your comrade in arms. POP goes the opne little bartack holding the first loop together! POP-POP-POP go the rest of them in rapid fire succession! Finally at the end of the daisy... you're left with one tiny bar tack to hold that big fall.
Of course, it doesn't. Your static daisy chain rips completely free from the anchor and both of you plummet to your death.
Even if you use two separate daisies to anchor or tie your own, if that factor-two fall occurs, they'll never be truly equalized. There's some risk of a cascade failure to your anchor as your highly static daisies transfer high loads to your anchor pieces one at a time.
As for anchoring at rappel stations, when you use a daisy and then adjust it short, make sure you clip the end in with one biner. And then adjust its length with a second biner.
Or better yet, forego daisy chains altogether. Tie into your belay anchors with the climbing rope, which really is the safest method. Plus, it's bought and paid for, you were carrying it anyway and it's aleady attached to you. For rappel anchors, just use a couple shoulder-length runners.
I'm sure somebody will point out that the above situation is very rare and that anchoring with a daisy wasn't the only mistake you and your hypothetical partner made. I would agree and further argue that this is one of the few reasons why most of us aren't dead right now. But I would also point out that if any of us do ever bite the big one while rock climbing, it will very likely be due to a cascade of errors -- none of which ever would have mattered... if it weren't for one critical mistake.
Edit again! Freakin' spelling. :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
krusher4
Apr 17, 2006, 8:31 PM
Post #8 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 17, 2005
Posts: 997
|
they will break.... Or are you going to use them for anchoring yourself in at the top of a route to thread the bolts? That is fine.
|
|
|
|
|
styndall
Apr 17, 2006, 8:41 PM
Post #9 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2002
Posts: 2741
|
I'm pretty sure most daisies are full-strength runners at the ends, so clipping just the ends of a daisy is no more risky than clipping in with a sewn runner. J_ung's scenario is therefor unlikely .
However, shortening the daisy by clipping a bight of it to the anchor biner is quite dangerous, since, though it looks bomber, without a twist it will act like clipping two loops. That is, if the center loops pop, it doesn't matter that the sling is full strength, since your biner is completely detached.
There's a BD video here that demonstrates the various issues with daisy chains as anchors.
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 17, 2006, 8:59 PM
Post #10 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
In reply to: I'm pretty sure most daisies are full-strength runners at the ends, so clipping just the ends of a daisy is no more risky than clipping in with a sewn runner. J_ung's scenario is therefor unlikely . However, shortening the daisy by clipping a bight of it to the anchor biner is quite dangerous, since, though it looks bomber, without a twist it will act like clipping two loops. That is, if the center loops pop, it doesn't matter that the sling is full strength, since your biner is completely detached. There's a BD video here that demonstrates the various issues with daisy chains as anchors.
But... but... that's exactly what I was trying to describe. :lol:
Of course, BD did it better...
In reply to: It’s hard to visualize but doing this is the same as clipping the tack between two pockets. If the tacks blow due to some unforeseen shock load scenario, you could become totally unclipped from your daisy.
...in two sentences.
:oops:
|
|
|
|
|
kricir
Apr 17, 2006, 9:20 PM
Post #11 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 15, 2005
Posts: 434
|
I use to use a daisy, but don’t anymore just because clove hitching on the the rope is simpler and lighter.
I don’t think that using one is all that dangerous, it’s like anything else, you need to know how it works to use it safely. The best way Iv seen is to twist the end loop (strongest one), fold it over its self and clip you locker through both loops. clip that to the anchor, then short clip the loop you want. This way, even if all the damn bar tracks blew (very unlikely) you would still be fine.
To answer your question, one locker would be fine, or one locker and one non locker to short clip. If you use a daisy, you should belay straight off the anchor, reducing the load on the daisy.
|
|
|
|
|
ltj16hb
Apr 17, 2006, 9:37 PM
Post #12 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 48
|
id like to thank all of you for talking about this... because untill now i figured myself super safe using that little guy...
common practice for me (using once biner, untill now) but when i would go to shorten the length of the daisy i choose the loop i want to shorten it with and before i clip it in i clip in the loop right before it... all the while leaving the main loop still locked on...
one thing that didnt scare me so bad was sitting here trying to replicate that BD video... i couldnt because i would naturally put the twist in it every time...... (glimer of light in the dark world of the daisy)
super extreme situations, or a lack of thinking, will take me from the top of the rock to the bottom at a very unsafe speed..... im going today to buy my personal anchored webbing with its waterknot...
thanks again!!
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Apr 17, 2006, 9:38 PM
Post #13 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
Jay's right....too dangerous and cumbersome.
clove hitch to anchor for climbing.
a pair of 24" runners girth-hitched to your harness with lockers on the ends for rappelling. (sometimes you'll need two runners hitched together to clip to the anchor...this is route dependent, but it doesnt matter- you should have a dozen or so with you anyway).
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Apr 17, 2006, 9:58 PM
Post #14 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
|
to add to what BD's site says and J_ung... John Long also has suggested that people anchor in with a knot or clove to the anchor with the rope.
Largo wrote: pg 5 of sliding x thread
In reply to: That's why a person should never tie into the anchor with a tech cord/web daisy. A daisy made out of anything but nylon is a serious liability because it can cause shock loading (as seen in the recent Rock and Ice expose). You ALWAYS tie into the anchor master point with the climbing rope. NO exceptions. |
|
|
|
|
austinclmbr
Apr 17, 2006, 10:58 PM
Post #15 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 2, 2005
Posts: 214
|
Just my two cents here....
As with a lot of things in climbing personal preference comes into play. I PREFER two daisies from pretty much everything. I ALWAYS use the last loop (rated to 22Kn I believe) and then may incorporate another loop to shorten if nesc. But that full strength loop is always in use. This works out great for extended belays of just about any length.
Reasons:
1. The P.A.S. is heavy and cumbersom, and difficult to use for extending the rap (again personal pref.)
2. Sewn runners always seem to be the wrong lentgh
3. using a clove incorporates your rope into the anchoring system, wich may be inconvienient if your second is not going to lead the next pitch.
Concerns:
improper use of a true daisy can be fatal, but then again the same could be said about the clove, or any other piece of gear. Also, when belaying I do tie an extra piece in (always rope) in exchange for one of the daisies. I have complete confidence in MY gear, but I would hate to have to explain why I didn't take every precaution with someone elses life. Now, I must admit this is also done for comfort after catching a 30 foot whipper with two 4 foot sling as my tie ins and my harness almost coming off I realized that the dynamic anchor was much better than The daisy, runner, OR PAS.
Conclusion: Use what you like,.....AFTER YOU LEARN TO USE IT SAFELY. It really doesn't matter what your using, what matters is that you use it correctly, even the trusty clove is worthless if your gate isn't locked. All it takes is one mistake. Confidence in you knowledge and skill is the true key here.
|
|
|
|
|
fracture
Apr 17, 2006, 11:04 PM
Post #16 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 1814
|
In reply to: Just my two cents here.... As with a lot of things in climbing personal preference comes into play. I PREFER two daisies from pretty much everything. I ALWAYS use the last loop (rated to 22Kn I believe) and then may incorporate another loop to shorten if nesc. But that full strength loop is always in use. This works out great for extended belays of just about any length.
Are you clipping both loops with the same 'biner?
(If so, you need to read the manual that came with your daisy, along with the earlier posts in this thread.)
|
|
|
|
|
hammerhead
Apr 17, 2006, 11:19 PM
Post #17 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2004
Posts: 371
|
In reply to: or make your own daisy with a chunk of webbing and then tie it with a water knot to make a big loop, then put water knots on a bight in every 6 inches or so for daisy pockets close to full strength. The knots weaken it of course, but it should still be good for 10 Kn or more. Plus it is way cheaper.
This is the idea I brought up in the thread "Homemade P.A.S." and everyone thought I'm nuts. I don't get it; it's still 1" freaking webbing!!
Al
|
|
|
|
|
echo
Apr 18, 2006, 1:18 AM
Post #18 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 25, 2005
Posts: 99
|
Well, i ended up not buying one after all of this. Thanks for the great comments everyone... If i find later that i think i need one, i'll get it, but untill i get on the rock with someone who is using one and see its "benefits" then i'll just use runners and such...
|
|
|
|
|
styndall
Apr 18, 2006, 1:33 AM
Post #19 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2002
Posts: 2741
|
In reply to: In reply to: I'm pretty sure most daisies are full-strength runners at the ends, so clipping just the ends of a daisy is no more risky than clipping in with a sewn runner. J_ung's scenario is therefor unlikely . However, shortening the daisy by clipping a bight of it to the anchor biner is quite dangerous, since, though it looks bomber, without a twist it will act like clipping two loops. That is, if the center loops pop, it doesn't matter that the sling is full strength, since your biner is completely detached. There's a BD video here that demonstrates the various issues with daisy chains as anchors. But... but... that's exactly what I was trying to describe. :lol:
Ach. Someday I'll learn to pay attention when I'm reading, and this won't come up.
|
|
|
|
|
jimdavis
Apr 18, 2006, 6:17 AM
Post #20 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935
|
There have been tests done where 80kg factor 2 falls on those ripped the material in half, rather than just blow out the pocket.
Incidently, talking with someone who's done some drop tests...those fancy skinny spectra slings failed everytime in a 80kg FF2 drop test. Beat-to-shit nylon slings held everytime though. Slings rated strenths are given in a slow pull test...not a drop test.
Think about that next time you clip into a spectra daisy...mine only comes out for Aid, these days.
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Apr 18, 2006, 6:23 AM
Post #21 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
In reply to: There have been tests done where 80kg factor 2 falls on those ripped the material in half, rather than just blow out the pocket. Incidently, talking with someone who's done some drop tests...those fancy skinny spectra slings failed everytime in a 80kg FF2 drop test. Beat-to-s--- nylon slings held everytime though. Slings rated strenths are given in a slow pull test...not a drop test. Think about that next time you clip into a spectra daisy...mine only comes out for Aid, these days. Jim
Jim that's scary. WHeres the info on those tests?
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Apr 18, 2006, 6:27 AM
Post #22 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
In reply to: In reply to: or make your own daisy with a chunk of webbing and then tie it with a water knot to make a big loop, then put water knots on a bight in every 6 inches or so for daisy pockets close to full strength. The knots weaken it of course, but it should still be good for 10 Kn or more. Plus it is way cheaper. This is the idea I brought up in the thread "Homemade P.A.S." and everyone thought I'm nuts. I don't get it; it's still 1" freaking webbing!! Al
IF either of you two have figured out how to do this the best way, post it.
I know what it is, and I'm not telling, until you try, LOL.
No hints.
|
|
|
|
|
sterlingjim
Apr 18, 2006, 1:25 PM
Post #23 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 7, 2006
Posts: 251
|
In reply to: In reply to: There have been tests done where 80kg factor 2 falls on those ripped the material in half, rather than just blow out the pocket. Incidently, talking with someone who's done some drop tests...those fancy skinny spectra slings failed everytime in a 80kg FF2 drop test. Beat-to-s--- nylon slings held everytime though. Slings rated strenths are given in a slow pull test...not a drop test. Think about that next time you clip into a spectra daisy...mine only comes out for Aid, these days. Jim Jim that's scary. WHeres the info on those tests?
I think I may be the source of Jim's info. and yes he is correct except they were factor 1.9 falls (splitting hairs I suppose). Spectra daisies or slings should never be your sole connection to the anchor and probably should not be your primary. It's not the force of your partner falling in any scenario that's the problem. The problem is you falling directly on the anchor while attached with a very static 'umbilical'. How could this happen if you're hanging on the sling? Suppose you step up for some reason to adjust something or fiddle stuff around then fall backwards and BAM! You may break the sling, you may break your back, you may crush your kidneys. A whole bunch of unpleasant things may happen. Of course it's entirely dependent on how long the fall is but static materials care very little about fall factors they only care about force and how quickly it is applied.
Here is a sample of the tests:
11/16" nylon, impact force 18.4kN, held
1" nylon, impact force 21.11kN, held
1/2" Spectra, impact force, 20.02kN, failed
5/8" Spectra, impact force, 19.2kN, failed
10mm Dyneema, impact force, 18.9kN, failed
The impacts listed were the highest recorded out of five drops on each. All nylon slings held. All Spectra and Dyneema slings failed. All slings had a minimum rating of 22kN. A fresh sling was used for every single drop. It should be noted that even the nylon slings recorded very high impacts, high enough to threaten the anchor and certainly high enough to cause serious personal injury. The maximum allowed impact force during the UIAA test is 12kN which is still uncomfortable on your body. It should also be noted that these drops were very extreme as the test rig is very ridged. Forces could be quite a bit lower when a live person is the mass. Any volunteers?
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
buckyllama
Apr 18, 2006, 2:04 PM
Post #24 of 91
(20584 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 314
|
In reply to: In reply to: or make your own daisy with a chunk of webbing and then tie it with a water knot to make a big loop, then put water knots on a bight in every 6 inches or so for daisy pockets close to full strength. The knots weaken it of course, but it should still be good for 10 Kn or more. Plus it is way cheaper. This is the idea I brought up in the thread "Homemade P.A.S." and everyone thought I'm nuts. I don't get it; it's still 1" freaking webbing!!
It's more or less safe. But it's a big honking mass of webbing that you are hauling around for the sole purpose of having somewhere to clip to start a rappel. Just use a sling. You've probably got several of them scattered about your person already. For anything but a rappel, just use the rope. It's much safer and more adjustable than any other solution. Plus this is cheapest of all: $0.
People thought you were nuts because daisys are aid specific gear and don't solve any problems in freeclimbing that can't be solved more simply in a dozen other ways. You might as well bring some aiders with you while you are at it. I hear the russian ones are nice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
