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tubbyb
Apr 19, 2006, 3:09 PM
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I didn't want to post this in the Regional forums because the issue is much much bigger than that. Bolting management plans that are currently being developed have the potential to affect climbing on all public lands.
My friend is doing her Master's on climbing access issues, and bolting management issues are a big part of it. Here is a flier for a presentation she is doing next week. It is easy for her to get input from organizations (Access Fund, CLC, BLM, etc) because they all have an official voice... what I think she really wants is input from THE CLIMBERS THEMSELVES!
http://i17.photobucket.com/...RockboltingLarge.jpg
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weschrist
Apr 19, 2006, 3:47 PM
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Bolting in Red Rocks? I thought all the lines that could be bolted had been and all the rest was trad.
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vegastradguy
Apr 19, 2006, 5:50 PM
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I'll bump this-- the bolting plan out in Red Rock is a big deal, and not just for Red Rock...it's being used as the basis for all BLM managed areas....any local and any climber visiting the area next week should come to this presentation.....
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weschrist
Apr 20, 2006, 1:50 AM
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So, what exactly is the scope of influence of this bolting plan? Don't some agencies already have pretty well established policies? Or is it still pretty piecemeal depending on the location?
What are some prominant BLM crags?
Red Rocks
Shelf Road?
Buttermilks (there are more and more bolted routes out there)
Cochise?
99% of everything in Utah
damn, this is harder than I thought... help me out here.
(p.s. the area code for Vegas is 702)
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theirishman
Apr 20, 2006, 2:02 AM
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Dont even get me started on what needs rebolting at red rocks! mone of my friends was doin a 10c and had to physically with his fingers screw 3 bolts BACK into the wall. Needless to say he didnt fall
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weschrist
Apr 20, 2006, 2:07 AM
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No doubt those bolts need to be replaced, the rock is super soft and the trade routes are definitely showing some wear.
I wish I could be there to learn the how, what, when, why, where, and who of the rebolting.
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112
Apr 20, 2006, 3:11 AM
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Is this presenttion about how to physically place a bolt, how to determine the most appropraite location on the rock to place a bolt, when it is apropraite to bolt, what is the most appropriate bolt to place, what permission is required to legally bolt, or all of it?
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weschrist
Apr 20, 2006, 4:39 AM
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In reply to: Is this presenttion about how to physically place a bolt, how to determine the most appropraite location on the rock to place a bolt, when it is apropraite to bolt, what is the most appropriate bolt to place, what permission is required to legally bolt, or all of it?
Good question. I would say that, based on the flier, it is likely about "History of Bolting Management and Issues with Bolting Management."
... but I could be wrong
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wodaddy
Apr 20, 2006, 4:50 AM
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1 - if you live in Vegas, then should attend the meeting..... if for no other reason than the women organizing it is SMOKIN' HOT (don't get to excited - her hubby is an ex-pro mtn. biker - he rips)
2 - the meeting in not about how to place a bolt. Re-read the flier (seems clearly explained to me) posted above if you need remind yourself what the meeting is about.
3 - with each passing day many climbing areas see more and more use. Sadly, the days of wild-west style no-rules (or self-regulated by climbers - is there a difference?) climbing has passed for many popular climbing areas. So, regardless of whether or not you support climbing management by governmental organizations, management will happen. Why not get involved and make your opinion heard (and more importantly, understood) at your local crag.
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larryd
Apr 20, 2006, 2:25 PM
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This is an issue of broad, even national, importance. Here's why:
The BLM in Las Vegas is intending to produce both a Wilderness Management Plan and a Climbing Management Plan. It is expected that in the near future the BLM will solicit public input on these topics. It will serve climbers' interests to be able to put forth reasonable and well-informed input at the appropriate time. This will not be as easy as you might think.
As Access Coordinator for the Las Vegas Climbers' Liaison Council I have had the opportunity to hear some of the BLM's thinking on these matters. I can assure you that the sort of plan that would occur to a reasonable, intelligent, and environmentally sensitive climber IS COMPLETELY OUT OF THE QUESTION! This is not because the BLM folks are being obstinate. It is a reflection of the fact that they themselves are constrained by the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) as well as a host of other bureaucratic realities relating not only to their own agency but the Forest Service and Park Service too.
It is hoped that this presentation will provide the background for understanding the BLM's approach to the question of wilderness bolts, and therefore help the climbing community put forth positive and meaningful input.
It should be noted that there are many whispers that when the Red Rock plan is complete it will become the basis for BLM (and other agency) management at many other climbing areas. Hence the broad importance. The Las Vegas Climbers' Liaison Council will be keeping an extremely close eye on these proceedings and will post updates of important news.
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wodaddy
Apr 20, 2006, 3:42 PM
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Just wanted to add to the things larryd wrote:
In Boulder, CO - the Flatirons, Eldorado Canyon, and nearby Jefferson County all have climbing management plans. It's been my experience that the government employees who develop the plan often have little knowledge of climbing and therefore construct a plan that seems "odd" to the affected climbers. However, it's also been my experience that these employees generally welcome sincere climber input. So, thru our input, a plan that first seems illogical can change and become something positive for the climbing community.
Since the Red Rocks plan may be a basis for future plans at other crags, it's important that we help the BLM get the Red Rocks plan right. The Red Rocks plan may one day affect your home crag.
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112
Apr 20, 2006, 3:43 PM
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In reply to: 2 - the meeting in not about how to place a bolt. Re-read the flier (seems clearly explained to me) posted above if you need remind yourself what the meeting is about.
All the flier states is Bolting Management! Personally that can mean a lot of diffrent things based on ones definition of Bolting Management. As in the actual procedure used, types of bolts used, and the legality of it all... etc.
If there exsits a climbing comunity excepted definition, I don't know it and you did not help enlighten me. Personally it sounds like more B.S.
I bearly ever climb sport, and try never to fall and bolts. I come accross spinners more often than not! But, yeah, there is no need to 'manage' the actual placement of bolts, just the... well whatever the presentation is going to cover.
Oh, and the flier also states scoping. An image comes to mind as what this means, but what is obvious to you is prolly not obvious to me.
Ken
P.S. We use bolts all the time at my work and compression bolts are no longer allowed! We have had some very bad results from these kinds. We only allow glue ins and more specifically we specifiy the actual expoxy mixture to be used (or rather which current products on the market we accept - and it aint all of them!). None of this is for climbing so don't ask, becasue I won't tell.
But yeah that isn't management! :roll:
I was really intrested, but now could care less! :evil:
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weschrist
Apr 20, 2006, 4:05 PM
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[quote="112]Personally that can mean a lot of diffrent things based on ones definition of Bolting Management.
Oh my God...
In reply to: I bearly ever climb sport, and try never to fall and bolts. I come accross spinners more often than not!
Bolting Management (as related to government agencies, NEPA, etc. not how you stack them in your work truck) affects your rap anchors too... especially in the wilderness.
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112
Apr 20, 2006, 4:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Is this presenttion about how to physically place a bolt, how to determine the most appropraite location on the rock to place a bolt, when it is apropraite to bolt, what is the most appropriate bolt to place, what permission is required to legally bolt, or all of it? Good question. I would say that, based on the flier, it is likely about " History of Bolting Management and Issues with Bolting Management." ... but I could be wrong
So was it a good question or not? :roll:
Oh my God....
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112
Apr 20, 2006, 4:21 PM
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In reply to: Bolting Management (as related to government agencies, NEPA, etc. not how you stack them in your work truck) affects your rap anchors too... especially in the wilderness.
We throw out improperly stored materials all the time. And I beleive that to be management as well!
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weschrist
Apr 20, 2006, 4:26 PM
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I suppose we need a meeting on sarcasm management...
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112
Apr 20, 2006, 4:47 PM
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In reply to: I suppose we need a meeting on sarcasm management...
Probably.... :D :lol: :D :lol:
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112
Apr 20, 2006, 4:57 PM
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When I started climbing I use to say 'Grid bolt the planet, 5 foot on center!'.
Then I was lucky enough to have a mentor teach me the pleasure of placing gear and removing it. And, now that is what I prefer (me not neccessarily you).
I personally don't care if a bolt goes in or not. But, if one does go in, it would be nice if it was put in with compitence, with the most appropriate materials currently available, and with a procedure that ensures (as much as practical) the bolt is sound.
I beleive we (the climbing community) are currently very far from that state. I base this statement only on personal experiance. My personal experience is by no means statistically valid, but it is what I have seen.
Best of luck!
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easyrider
Apr 20, 2006, 6:38 PM
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An opportunity to learn about the history of issues surrounding access for climbing areas sounds good to me. The earth was flat once!
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larryd
Apr 20, 2006, 8:06 PM
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In reply to: Just wanted to add to the things larryd wrote: In Boulder, CO - the Flatirons, Eldorado Canyon, and nearby Jefferson County all have climbing management plans. It's been my experience that the government employees who develop the plan often have little knowledge of climbing and therefore construct a plan that seems "odd" to the affected climbers. However, it's also been my experience that these employees generally welcome sincere climber input. So, thru our input, a plan that first seems illogical can change and become something positive for the climbing community.
In the area of goodish news, the BLM folks involved in the planning stages here in Las Vegas are experienced climbers. This is no guarantee, of course, but optimism does not seem totally foolish...
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weschrist
Apr 21, 2006, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: When I started climbing I use to say 'Grid bolt the planet, 5 foot on center!'. I personally don't care if a bolt goes in or not.
Based on the first sentence, it sounds like you shouldn't be left thinking for yourself.
Based on the second sentence it sounds like you must climb some pretty obscure shit cuz most of the routes I've done lately (including trad) have at least some bolts, especially for anchors.
First supporting overbolting, then not caring at all. That is an excellent way to get government agencies to take away not only bolting but climbing access in general.
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112
Apr 22, 2006, 10:04 PM
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In reply to: First supporting overbolting, then not caring at all. That is an excellent way to get government agencies to take away not only bolting but climbing access in general.
I never said I don't care at all (I did say I could care less - in regards to this Bolting Management presentation)! Bolt by bolt, I don't care which ones go in and which ones doen't, well becasue I am not placing any of them. But, if a bolt does go in, I care that it be structually sound! There is a big difference.
It seems funny to me that management would be about the quantity of bolts and not the quality of them.
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weschrist
Apr 22, 2006, 11:10 PM
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In reply to: It seems funny to me that management would be about the quantity of bolts and not the quality of them.
It seems funny to me that some people don't realize that, if left to the majority of public land managers, there would be NO BOLTS... regardless of quality.
It also seems funny to me that some people couldn't care less, as long as the bolts are there... and fail to realize that one day they may not be... that includes those at rappel and belay stations
It also seems funny to me that some people get all hung up on their initial misunderstanding of a topic and can't let go of their initial impressions of what the issue actually is.
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112
Apr 22, 2006, 11:16 PM
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So what is the issue?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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112
Apr 23, 2006, 12:03 AM
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In reply to: So, what exactly is the scope of influence of this bolting plan?
I guess you don't know either.
Just a damn waste of time. But, thanks anyway. :roll:
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