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Partner holdplease2


Apr 22, 2006, 7:04 AM
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Hi Geoff:

Do check Andy's web site, as in the rest of it, it has some great stuff. 'Specially the illustrations.

It sounds like you and your bro did a good job with problem solving, which is cool. I can't tell from your post if he lowered the bag and you "guided" it while you were rapping, or if he lowered it later, down to you.

However, if the route was wandering a bit, it might have been hard, either way, to get the pig to the station by lowering it without a person attached. I bailed off of a wall with a partner and a only moderately heavy pig, but here's what we did:

Partner 1: Rapped the lines first, located the station, swung into it and fixed the lines...not too tight.

Partner 2: Rapped with the pigs "riding the pigs" with a docking cord ready, as shown in Mr. Kirkpatrics illustrations. Then either swung themselves into the station with a penji or was pulled into the station by the partner if the bag made the swing too hard without help.

Partner 2: Docks the pigs and partner 1 pulls the ropes (with one end already thru the lower station) to get ready for the next raps.

This does 3 things:

1) Allows one partner to search for/reach the station without worrying about getting screwed up by the pig.

2) Allows the partner with the pig to focus on the pig and know that the station was already found AND that the end of both lines was fixed.

3) Provides "muscle help" for the partner with the heavy load to reach the station if needed.

Hope this helps,

-Kate.

PS - Nice, PMYCHE! Too Many Silverfish! Its the only one on the list I haven't seriously considered at least once... ;)


climbingcowboy


Apr 22, 2006, 7:49 PM
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Thanks Kate thanks makes sense. I was guiding the pig as he was lowering it. I think this would work better then way you metioned on this route (SFWC) just do to it being so low angled and all the ledges and flakes on it, but what you said deffintely is a better choice on steper stuff.

I'm still not sure why anyone would not ride the pig down but would rather hook the pig to you. At first I was thinking if it was low angled and you attached the pig to you it would be lower then you making it easier to control, but isnt the easily fixed by just putting a longer webbing to the pig. It just seems more comfortable and safer to have the pig hooked to the rappel device. Help me out here till I can get out and mess around again with this stuff.

Geoff


Partner holdplease2


Apr 22, 2006, 8:20 PM
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Howdy Mr. Cowboy:

If the pig isn't super heavy, sometimes I do clip it to my belay loop (small pig from push routes or fix/fire routes down rapel routes. This is usually more of a backpack-sized pig.

Plus, you can put the pig on belay and have its full weight on the line, so you know your system is bomber before you put your own body on it. This is reassuring if rapping with all that weight is already scaring you a bit.

In general, I find that I sometimes want to move around, and being able to move relative to the pig can be a good thing. TI attach to the pig/belay device with full length daisies for some degree of movement, but shorten them up for the "ride"

I can't really explain it in more detail than that, maybe someone else can. Hope this helps, tho. :)

-Kate.


climbingcowboy


Apr 22, 2006, 10:09 PM
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makes sense thanks Kate. Its funny how much I've practised this stuff but never thought about asking these simple questions. At least I was doing it right, and made it back around to ask them. :roll:


lambone


Apr 23, 2006, 11:25 PM
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In reply to:
The key is: Don't Bail. Seriously. Bailing is often as hard as climbing, specially if you are solo, and on many routes, may be harder/more dangerous than actually climbing them as long as the weather is stable.


tell that to the Japanesse folks.

actually, perhaps if they had bailed they be here to tell the story. rip


lambone


Apr 24, 2006, 12:02 AM
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I don't agree with Kate that it's not a good idea to use a kliemheist autoblock back-up below the ATC. I disagree that it will get so tight that you have to cut it...if you do it properly at least. better to have a back-up.

most of the diagrams being shown show the bag connected to the rap-device biner with a sling.

I am a fan of connecting the bags to the belay device biner with a munter-mule load release knot in a long cordellete. backed up with a daisy or something of course. That way you can release the bags from the belay/rappel device at any time if you had to, perhaps onto an anchor, without lifting them off your device with muscle.


mikeehartley


Apr 24, 2006, 7:21 AM
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Here's something I've thought of to (hopefully) simplify retreating with a pig - but I haven't actually tried it yet. It could be modified to work with a pig(s) that weigh more than you but ideally they are equal to or less than you. The crux will be trying to explain it without a picture...

Run your first rope through the rap anchor (must be a ring/biner and not just loose webbing) and tie a big ole knot and connect to top of pig with a couple of biners. Tie your second rope securely to the bottom of the pig. Keep the tails of both ropes connected to you. Set up your rap device on the first rope, weight it, and unclip the bag so that it is now supported by your weight. Rap to the next anchor. As long as you don't un-weight the rope you should have the freedom to penji if needed. Once at the next anchor lower the bag using your device, which you never removed from the rope, and guide piggy to you with the second rope. Secure pig and pull ropes.

Seems like this method would allow you to rap sans pig, be maneuverable, and not require re-jugging (aurgh!) the rope.

Whatcha think?


Partner mr8615


Apr 24, 2006, 7:40 AM
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Mike,

Sounds like it would work, assuming that you can make the rap with a single rope or effectively pass knots (sketchy sometimes). It would also assume that that pig doesn't stand a chance of catching on anything on the way down or knocking anything off onto you. It seems like you'd be better off having someone control the pig the whole time.


lambone


Apr 24, 2006, 9:32 AM
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mikeheartly,

the technique you are describing is a common self-rescue technique known as the "assisted-lower." you can do this with one, or two ropes tied together, just put the pig on the knot side. {edit} oops I mean the non-knot side.

It works well but you need to connect the haulbag to your harnes so that it comes down along with you. may sound funny, but if you do this with a person you actually have to pull them down along with you. a sling is all you need for the connection, and it ussualy pulls up on you no down, unles sthe bag is like twice as heavy as you.

be sure to have some sort of docking teather ready on the bag for when you hit the next belay. you will want a load release knot or mechanism to ease the next transfer. allways back everything up. 8^)


mikeehartley


Apr 24, 2006, 10:03 AM
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Bone,

Thanks for the thoughts. I've done the assisted lower before, or at least one version of it. It doesn't give you the freedom to move much laterally though since the pig/person is basically attached to you.

mr8615 - The way I see it there aren't any knots to pass with this system. The concern about loose rock is very valid. At least this way you can descend and if rockfall looks like a concern, fix the rope, jug back up, and then rap while you guide the pig.

One of these days when I turn into a climber again I'll have to try it and see what the real kinks are. I've just never seen anyone post on having done it this way.


olympicmtnboy


Apr 24, 2006, 10:11 AM
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Wow, lots of great stuff here. Most likely I'll end up using some of this since I've just recently jumped into solo aid this season. One question I have that hasn't been address yet is passing a know while rapping with bags. I've only passed knots with a bag light enough to easily move around (often just a backpack). How do you pass a knot when rapping with a heavy bag?


Partner holdplease2


Apr 24, 2006, 10:50 AM
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Hey Lambone:

I think I may be missing something, it would be great if you could explainl..

I can see how when rapping with just yourself, and backing up to your leg loop with a klimheist, you can realease it by lifting your leg a bit relative to the belay device.

But if you are rapping with the pigs directly attached to the atc, and the klimheist attached to the pigs, but below the ATC as backup...and the pigs then weight the klimheist, weighing 120-150 pounds...how do you unweight the klimheist?

Thanks, as I would like to backup this way, but cannot see how to unweight the knot when the klimheist is holding the weight.

Are you attaching the backup to something other than the pigs?

Thanks for your help,

-Kate.


Partner holdplease2


Apr 24, 2006, 10:53 AM
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If you are in an emergency situation, or your rope is damanged, you can have to pass a knot with a heavy pig. If you are rapping fixed lines on the east ledges, you may have to pass a knot or even switch ropes.

There are many discussions on this, I can't go finding them right now, tho, as I am supposed to be working...perhaps in a bit.

-Kate.


mikeehartley


Apr 24, 2006, 12:07 PM
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Kate,

On the klemheist backup- in my experience releasing this has not been hard even with a heavy load. Since the backup is below the rap device it does not hold the full weight of the pig - only the amount of force that your brake hand holds. I'd guess that it doesn't take much more than 30 lbs of push to release the knot. If the backup is above the device that's a different story. I don't do an excessive number of wraps on my klemheist backup though. Depending on what I'm using I probably average 3. I do a few wraps, test it to make sure they are enough, and then away I go.

On passing knots - I think this is a nerve-wracking hassle but technically no big deal. The key is to have two docking cords on the pig. The bag hangs on from one your rap device. As you come to the knot to be passed anchor the 2nd docking cord (several prussks above knot works for an anchor). Release the first docker, transfer the rap device below the knot, and then reverse the process. It's important to have docking cords that are pretty long so you don't run out of travel. Depending on your experience and comfort level you can back up the bag with a sling/daisy at all stages but its easy to forget to undo the backup and screw yourself. If someone knows of an easier method I'd like to learn it.


lambone


Apr 24, 2006, 12:23 PM
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In reply to:
Hey Lambone:

But if you are rapping with the pigs directly attached to the atc, and the klimheist attached to the pigs, but below the ATC as backup...and the pigs then weight the klimheist, weighing 120-150 pounds...how do you unweight the klimheist?

Thanks, as I would like to backup this way, but cannot see how to unweight the knot when the klimheist is holding the weight.

Are you attaching the backup to something other than the pigs?

Thanks for your help,

-Kate.

Kate,

yes i allways attach the klimheist to a biner clipped to my leg loop, and tend the friction knot carefull when lowering. If it does cinch it is ussually fairly easy to unweight it, regardles of how heavy you and the load are, because the klimheist slips easily when pushed by your hand (if it tied well).

attached to your leg loop it is easy to unweight, and should never be getting too tight.

mybe some would argue different.


lambone


Apr 24, 2006, 12:35 PM
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If you are in an emergency situation, or your rope is damanged, you can have to pass a knot with a heavy pig. If you are rapping fixed lines on the east ledges, you may have to pass a knot or even switch ropes.

There are many discussions on this, I can't go finding them right now, tho, as I am supposed to be working...perhaps in a bit.

-Kate.

sure, your point is?

You definately don't want to let the knot get sucked into the klimheist back-up, that could get messy.

I can't see much cause for passing a knot with a full haulbag, except for maybe emergency bailing off the heart lines. I try to avoid it.

If bailing or on the east ledges. I allways prefer to use my own lines rather then go down some ratty old ones, especialy on the east ledges descent. why kill yourself AFTER climbing El Cap...on the way down. Fuck those ropes.

If I was tieing the ropes together to make it down to the deck in one 400 or 600ft rap to the ground, I would probly either be leaving my haulbag for later retrieval, or I would tie it to the end of the chord and lower it in one shot with a munter hitch passing the knots at the anchor. I actually did this once or twice on the Trip.


Partner kimgraves


Apr 24, 2006, 2:16 PM
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Can a Shunt be used instead of a klimheist? I use a Shunt as my normal rappel backup and it's easy to release under load.

Kim


lambone


Apr 24, 2006, 2:39 PM
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yeah but its a big heavy peice of gear to carry when 3ft of 6mil chord does the trick.

you allready have jumars, pulleys/haul device, swivel, gri-gri, etc....etc...eventually you have to draw the line.


ricardol


Apr 24, 2006, 5:50 PM
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i'm a little late with my comment .. but i wanted to chime in regarding kate's bail from Tribal last year ..

.. i was on south seas while she was debating wether to continue or to bail ..

.. i remember that in a conversation with dave turner and pete she basically boiled it down to this (on the radio).. kate had no rivet kit with her, she was sure that some rivets were blown .. and had only bolts with her .. to continue she would have to either cheat stick throug the missing rivets, or place bolts in their place ... neither option seemed like a good idea .. so down she went.

.. i thought that was great style ..


Partner holdplease2


Apr 25, 2006, 6:14 AM
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Thanks guys for the tip on the prussik/klimheist.

Lambone: Your "Sure Your Point Is..." remark was to a response I wrote to someone elses post. Someone was asking how to pass a knot (I think as a separate issue/question) and there was some question as to whether this was likely to be required. It had nothing to do with your previous post. Sorry for the confusion.

And Ricardo, yes, the rivit kit question was a problem, (I had two 1/4 inch buttonheads, and could have considered those, the rest were 3/8 inchers...the rivits on the route were 1/2 inch machine heads 1/8 inch in. Yuck.) but I also could have tried bathooking the holes. In the end I decided "Screw this" and went to the Pizza Deck with friends. You probably missed the AM radio call when I was talking with Dave & Pete and said bye to the guys on the wall and got outta there, crediting 'liteness' for the bail in the end... :)


-Kate.


lambone


Apr 25, 2006, 12:18 PM
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I agree you made the right call Kate, you shouldn't second guess...or have to explain yourself.

so, question back on topic.

What sort of auto-block back up (if any) did you use when you rapped from up above Boot flake? sonuds like not the standard "leg-loop" autoblock...?


Partner holdplease2


Apr 25, 2006, 1:10 PM
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Hi Lambone:

Thank you...

I didn't use a backup, but my rap system was a grigri, with an ATC for additional friction and the ends of the lines clipped to me, with both ropes feeding from rope buckets on the pig.

I never thought of backing up a grigri rap, and had always considered an autoblock backup to be a pretty big potential problem with that big of a load, so I am glad to hear otherwise from you guys. Another trick in the bag, for sure.

However, I am hoping not to need the trick again anytime soon. ;)

-Kate.


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Apr 25, 2006, 1:18 PM
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Hi Kate,

This might be a dumb noob question, but how do you rap on double ropes with a gri? Rap on the non-knot side?

Thanks, Kim


lambone


Apr 25, 2006, 2:03 PM
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In reply to:
Hi Lambone:

I never thought of backing up a grigri rap, and had always considered an autoblock backup to be a pretty big potential problem with that big of a load, so I am glad to hear otherwise from you guys. Another trick in the bag, for sure.

However, I am hoping not to need the trick again anytime soon. ;)

-Kate.

Hi Kate,
I don't usualy rap my doubled ropes with a gri-gri...I use just one ATC sytle device with the leg-loop auto block. I have done East Ledges several times like this with big loads and it was fine. Never any trouble releasing it after it cinched.

I would NEVER tie the Auto-block or Jumar above the device like some people do though....that is asking for big trouble.


Partner holdplease2


Apr 25, 2006, 5:10 PM
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Right on, Lambone.

Kim: The system I used to rap, fix my lines, and get the pigs to the anchor was weird, and only kinda safe. Not something I'd recommend.

If someone should use it, they'll make it up on their own when the time comes. You understand, I'm sure, internet being what it is. :)

-Kate.

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