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aimeerose
Apr 27, 2006, 12:03 AM
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Someone went to a lot of trouble to put a really nice, camoflauged rap anchor at the top of Deception Left in Flagstaff, AZ and someone went and chopped it. If this person happens to read this post, I would love to have a discussion with you about why that rap anchor was put in and why it is valuable to have there. I'm sure you would be opposed to rap stations at Paradise Forks as well, and I would love to chat with you about those too, because we are hoping to make them a reality and I would like to see them stay there. Maybe we could go climb out there sometime and discuss the alternatives to rapping off the trees because we need to stop rapping off them. The large pine at the top of the Prow wall is going to die and end up at the bottom of the canyon if something is not done soon.
Again, I would like to have a mature conversation about all this with you and anyone else who would be opposed to rap stations at Paradise Forks. Please PM me or respond to this post.
Thanks,
Aimee
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codhands
Apr 27, 2006, 12:20 AM
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I can't tell you about your mystery chopper but, my two cents are this.
If a climb falls out of favor you can always chop rap bolts and fill the holes. It wouldn't take long. However if you strangle one of our oxygen producing, SHADE giving, big buddies the tree, there is a good chance you won't live long enough to see another grow to take it's place. I'll tell you there is a lot more rock in this world than there are trees. I know, maybe you should just go CHOP their Rap tree :shock:
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toddtar
Apr 27, 2006, 1:15 AM
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Did the FA give permission to add the bolts? If not then chop chop. If the FA did give permission then the chopper is wrong. JMHO
T
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scotchie
Apr 27, 2006, 1:31 AM
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Is the tree dying because of all the rappels, because of the bark beetles, or something else?
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paganmonkeyboy
Apr 27, 2006, 1:39 AM
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In reply to: Did the FA give permission to add the bolts? If not then chop chop. If the FA did give permission then the chopper is wrong. JMHO T
question - if the rap tree is dying and the FA is silent - can you add bolts then ?
not trolling g - just honestly curious how that scenario works for you...
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epicsaga
Apr 27, 2006, 2:15 AM
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It seems like people who chop bolts never admit it and reveal their identity and those that put in bolts always do. If the choppers think what theyre doing is right they should reveal themselves to the world.
Its blatant vandalism/destruction of property. My take is bolt choppers are the equivalent of those that write computer viri (viruses), spoiled, malevolent children that like destroying others work.
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epicsaga
Apr 27, 2006, 2:19 AM
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In reply to: Did the FA give permission to add the bolts? If not then chop chop. If the FA did give permission then the chopper is wrong. JMHO T
So now the FA is God over RAP bolts too? That aren't directly on the route? Nonsense.
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mhabicht
Apr 27, 2006, 2:27 AM
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Ahhh.. how come no one is asking the REALLY obvious question?!?!
Can you safely walk around in 10 minutes or so? If so then CHOP CHOP!!!
I do have a caveat about the above statement.... if the climb is a 5.4 and requires some 5.2 down scrambles then rap anchors are ok (might be unsafe for the climbers). However if the climb is a 5.11 and requires a 5.2 down scramble then chop chop!!
-m
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aimeerose
Apr 27, 2006, 5:11 AM
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Yep, the first ascentionist gave his blessing for the rap anchors. The tree is dying from people rapping off of it. And, I'm not quite sure how being able to walk off makes it okay to chop the anchors. This is a climb that is top roped the majority of the time, thus people hike up, set up a top rope off the tree and proceed. The climbs at Paradise Forks require rapping in (off the trees) and climbing up the desired route.
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cragb
Apr 27, 2006, 6:10 AM
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The only problem I have with rap bolts is that it seems to encourage the idea of convenience climbing...with an emphasis on safety and efficiency. In a place like the Forks, where you need to rappel in, they seem warranted for ecological reasons, although out of place in a strictly traditional environment. That's not an easy decision to be made in the polarized world of climbing ethics......Out of sheer curiosity, what is it about rapeling thats stressing this tree to the point of dying, besides drought, bark beetles, etc.....:? ?
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aimeerose
Apr 27, 2006, 4:07 PM
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The tree is not plagued by bark beetle. Of course drought is widespread in this area, but the 2 bigger problems are
1) trunk girdling- where the bark on the trunk is worn down circumfrentially, thus not allowing for transport of nutrients into the tree and
2) ground erosion creating root exposure- pine roots grow horizontally instead of vertically, thus when the roots are exposed, they are prone to dying.
I'm not a forester, and someone else would probably have a more correct explanation of these phenomena, but you get the gist (hopefully).
Also, why shouldn't we emphasize safety when establishing climbing areas? Isn't safety our main tenent that keep us alive? Some people maintain that an incredible woman from Phoenix would still be alive today if there were bolted rap stations at the Forks.
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cragb
Apr 27, 2006, 4:28 PM
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Thanks for the info, it all makes sense now. I had a passing thought writing the last post about the women who died last fall and how different the situation would have been with some rap bolts, hindsight being 20/20. I think if rap bolts were to be installed, the majority of the climbing community would be in favor of it. Any objectors out there?
Craig
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sidepull
Apr 27, 2006, 4:30 PM
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intelligent discourse:
In reply to: Again, I would like to have a mature conversation about all this with you and anyone else who would be opposed to rap stations at Paradise Forks. Please PM me or respond to this post.
idiocy:
In reply to: Did the FA give permission to add the bolts? If not then chop chop. If the FA did give permission then the chopper is wrong. JMHO
it's unfortunate that a thread that has really good intentions gets bogged down in such stupid, simplistic aphorisms. Toddtar, have you really thought through the situation before you spew baseless conclusions?
Let the chopper come forth.
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themightyjimbo
Apr 27, 2006, 4:32 PM
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This is exactly the kind of shit that makes me want to take up a less agro sport. Like basketball. Or boxing.
We see this all the time in SoCal. I feel like Rodney King here, "why can't we all just get along?"
If the bolter went through the trouble to ask the FA permission to put in the bolts, then the chopper should do the same.
It's a complex issue, and getting everybody to agree on the ethics and impact of bolting is probably never going to happen. But there is lots of room for discussion and compromise. In most climbing areas, the developers (and traditionalists) are well known and recognized. It shouldn't take more than a few phone calls to at least discuss, if not resolve.
Let's put the sacred cows on the barbeque. It will save everyone time and money and aggravation.
My two cents. Now if you will excuse me, I have to go chip some holds on Illusion Dweller and drill some bolts on Big Mo.
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dingus
Apr 27, 2006, 4:38 PM
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In reply to: Also, why shouldn't we emphasize safety when establishing climbing areas? Isn't safety our main tenent that keep us alive? Some people maintain that an incredible woman from Phoenix would still be alive today if there were bolted rap stations at the Forks.
She would also be alive if she had never climbed at all. I don't mean to be callous, but then again, I'm sure you didn't mean to be either!
This notion of 'safe' climbing is the true meat of your issue, seems to me.
As I see it, there are 3 primary motivations you propose for fixed rap stations:
1. Tree preservation (I'd hang onto this one if I were you)
2. Safety (false hope)
3. Convenience (gym mentality)
In areas once dominated by traditional climbing, risk was and is considered a part of the game. Yes, that include descents. Those who value these aspects of climbing will be unmoved by your plea for safety. They consider a lack of safety a plus, and to many, a threshold that winnows out those 'undesirables' who's motivations are completely at odds with their own.
If you expect those with differing styles to understand and respect your motivations for climbing, it it unreasonable to expect the same courtesy from you (the figurative you, of course) to theirs?
Potential compromise? How about finding non-leathal ways to use those trees for rap anchors, onces that preclude bolts? Maybe talk to an arborist about ways this might be done? Wouldn't this represent a win/win? Traditional methods respected, trees protected, trad 'atmosphere' preserved...
I find the 'selfish children' charge of one responder woefully ignorant, but at the same time understandable. However, 'selfish children' can also apply to those late comers who seeks to change the character of an area based strictly upon their own needs.
I doubt seriously the chopper will confront you here. She doesn't need to... she's already made her statement. That's the beauty of self-police... one is free to drill some holes and fill them with shiny metal. Others are equally free to chop chop chop. Makes the upfront work all the more important.
I prefer this to government regulation. (don't go crying to momma land manager whatever you do!)
Cheers
DMT
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altelis
Apr 27, 2006, 4:42 PM
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In reply to: Let's put the sacred cows on the barbeque. It will save everyone time and money and aggravation.
and then we can have a wicked rager, drink some beers, listen to some music and have a jolly good time 8^)
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aimeerose
Apr 27, 2006, 5:39 PM
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I am personally more concerned with the trees than people's personal safety. That's why I said "some people". It's actually not my opinion. I've seen people fall off of the top of sport climbs while rapping down from them. Obviously the presence of bolts does not automatically create a safer situation.
Convience is not my concern either. It's maybe even more convient to rap off the trees- no downclimbing required, as would be likely needed to rap off the rim from an anchor.
Nope, environmental concerns are my main issue. A couple years ago a beautiful juniper died and fell to the bottom of the Overlook, because WE killed it from rapping off of it.
Also, the "trad" guys in this area, the forefathers of the sport here, who discovered the area see the light of rap anchors. It's some renegade out there who disagrees. The guy who put the rap station in at Elden recieved the concensus of the majority of the climbing community. It only takes one bad apple...
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sonso45
Apr 27, 2006, 6:02 PM
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Good luck Aimee, chopping bolts at the forks is a time honored tradition. Are the proposed anchors going to be safely accessible from the top, like the tree? If not, the tree will be used by many who are afraid to lean over the edge and clip bolts. I suggest the use of glue-ins and would donate to the cause. We don't need to abuse the trees anymore. Years ago, I helped push a huge dead pine tree over the edge above Paradise Lost. It took just two of us. It was being used as an anchor at the time. Pieces are still left in the canyon. I don't know if it died from abuse by climbers but that's what will happen to the Prow's "anchor" in the near future. Manny
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aimeerose
Apr 27, 2006, 6:22 PM
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Are glue-ins any harder to chop? George Bain suggested maybe putting a plaque near the rap stations and explaining why they are there and please contact someone before chopping them. I also would like to talk to those opposed to rap stations and maybe see if they have a better solution. We're hoping to have a NACC meeting in the near future about all this.
We would have to go out to the forks and look at areas that could be used as rap stations. Ideally they would be easily accessable from the rim. My idea is to have maybe one rap station for each main area. As for the Prow area, Tomas has a plan drawn up to actually reinforce the top area with a small concrete pad, since the erosion is so bad, but of course we're having a tough time getting it approved by the forest service.
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steelmonkey
Apr 28, 2006, 12:30 AM
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In reply to: Also, why shouldn't we emphasize safety when establishing climbing areas? Isn't safety our main tenent that keep us alive?
Safety is knowledge, intelligence, common sense and experience. I'm not sure why the new paradigm in climbing seems to be that bolts automagically = safety. I think if you're going to argue for fixed anchors, you should stick with preservation of the trees and area, but that's just an opinion.
In reply to: Some people maintain that an incredible woman from Phoenix would still be alive today if there were bolted rap stations at the Forks.
I find something about this statement so wrong. Using what was essentially a pilot-error mistake like this to support your anchor theory is b.s. I'm entirely sympathetic to the loss experienced by friends and family, but it was a mistake that we are all capable of making at any time.
Saving the trees is entirely worthwhile and I support that wholeheartedly.
Anchors at the Forks...that seems to open up a whole raft of worms. Would that be anchors on top of every established route? What do you do when a route tops out on a vertical wall with no sign of a ledge, yet is over 100' (aka 30m) long? Take two ropes, do a hanging belay and rap off? Buy 70m ropes? The danger involved in rappelling off the rim from an anchor just below it seems to be at issue as well. Again, I support the saving of the trees, but I can see several ways in which fixed anchors at the top of some routes will present a higher level of risk to climbers. And I can see on those types of routes where people will knowingly avoid the bolted anchors at the rim to use the trees because they don't want to deal with any (perceived) risk presented by using the bolts.
I'm really curious about this... been climbing at the Forks for a long time and I'd like to see it preserved, just not sure what the best solution really is...
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steelmonkey
Apr 28, 2006, 7:35 PM
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Please don't use glue-ins unless you also put links on them for people to rap from. Otherwise, they just end up sawn through eventually and then they're a reall mess to fix.
I'd be against any sort of concrete pad if it came to that.
I'd be against any sort of plaque being glued to the rock for the purpose of explanation. I expect that this sort of information won't stop someone from chopping bolts if that's what they have on their mind, so lets keep the impact to the rock minimal if possible. Maybe you could make up some sort of collar-type deal that goes in behind a bolt hanger if you feel a need to explain. I can send you a photo of examples of this that were installed in Boulder.
I could easily see climbers feeling that the use of the bolts over the rim carrying some kind of perceived extra risk and then going ahead and using the trees anyway.
Can you post up to let people know if there is a NACC meeting that will discuss the anchors? I would really like to attend that meeting to participate in the discussion. Seems like an issue that as many from the climbing community as possible should be involved with, at least at the discussion level.
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sonso45
Apr 30, 2006, 6:40 PM
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In keeping with the natural beauty of the area, I would suggest muclh, as in pine bark you find at home depot, for the areas being worn down. Can't hurt and it looks better than dirt or concrete. I would also suggest we look at how TRs are usually setup at the forks. Folks use the trees cause they are away from the edge and are solid. If we put bolts/anchors away from the rim far enough to be used similarly to the trees, it would be used the same. Any bolt placed there could be camouflaged yet visible. Which routes are you planning on putting anchors over?
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el_layclimber
Apr 30, 2006, 7:01 PM
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As someone who has climbed at Elden since childhood, and enjoys going back there when I get the chance, it makes me very sad to hear that the top of Right Deception has been bolted. Bolts are an eyesore, but chopping them does not eliminate this problem. Those climbs are easily walked off of and there are numerous trees to balance out use for a TR.
If you can't climb in a way that is preserves the beauty of the area for the next person, you shouldn't climb at all.
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aimeerose
May 2, 2006, 2:08 AM
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el_layclimber said In reply to: If you can't climb in a way that is preserves the beauty of the area for the next person, you shouldn't climb at all.
Did you miss the whole point of the rap stations? It's to preserve the beauty of the area by not killing the trees. If we had put rap stations at the Overlook there would still be a beautiful juniper at the top of the cliff. The person who put the rap station in camoflauged it so it couldn't even be seen by someone who wasn't specifically looking for it.
As for where we would put rap stations at the Forks, I am proposing one at each main cliff over the rarely climbed routes. Also, we need to look to see what would be the most accessible from the rim.
After climbing the Mace this weekend, I'm thinking big eye bolts would be the best option- hard to chop and super burly.
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rockrat_co
May 2, 2006, 3:23 AM
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Im not suggesting that anyone go insane bolting now, but igf they're there, leave them there. If its contraversial, dont bolt it. Use common sense, and be respectful to other climbers, and nature. If its allredy there, just let it be.
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