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Aiding Moab
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stymingersfink


Apr 28, 2006, 6:41 PM
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Aiding Moab
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I've been working out of Moab for the past couple of weeks, so I've had weekends to spend some time climbing. I have enjoyed the freeclimbing in the area, but I am amazed at the dearth of aid lines nearby.

So I decided I would climb something new.

Anyone else interested in 300-500 foot pecker+rurp seams in Wingate, overlooking the colorado river?

So far the first pitch is A3 off the ground for 30', then A2+ for 40'. Ive got a short roof coming up for p2, followed by a big roof for p3. P's 4-7(?) would ease off a bit following what appears to be a good cam crack (If there isn't a suitable beak seam, that is).

(relevant) Suggestions on anchors would be appreciated. Plans for now include 4" rawl 5-piece bolts with standard 25kN hangers, slings and quick-links.


dangle


May 4, 2006, 4:14 PM
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Yo Stinkyfinger,

if you weren't into the (potentially) selfish rurping and peckering I might show you how to place a drilled angle that would last longer than the cliff.


paganmonkeyboy


May 4, 2006, 4:44 PM
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In reply to:
Yo Stinkyfinger,

if you weren't into the (potentially) selfish rurping and peckering I might show you how to place a drilled angle that would last longer than the cliff.


ooo...can i tag along please ? this is a skill i very much need to learn and practice...will bring beverages, belay, etc...


dangle


May 4, 2006, 5:30 PM
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Another problem;
how would people distinguish mine from yours....?


paganmonkeyboy


May 5, 2006, 7:10 AM
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a question - would/could the potentially selfish rurps and such possibly open up the seam a little more, maybe enough to leave fixed pitons at some future point ? or is a fixed piton nowhere near as long lasting as a drilled angle in the sandstone ?


dangle


May 5, 2006, 11:48 AM
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Unfortunately the long term efficacy of constructive scarring is directly related to the depth of the crack. So seams that require beaks or rurps rather than long blades blow out MUCH faster. Thats why using them rather than a more lasting option is selfish.
The problem is obfuscated by "traditional" values that exalt boldness over environmental considerations turning a blind eye to the outcome.

Its a road we have already started down, but if we don't start focusing on the result we may find that land managers assume a prophylactically restrictive posture.
(OMG what have I said? lol)


stymingersfink


May 5, 2006, 3:54 PM
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In reply to:
land managers assume a prophylactically restrictive posture
Um, they pull it over their heads and breathe deeply? That may be a good start.

all valid concerns noted above, and things which have spent more than a little time in the forefront of my mind. Question is, what's the best way to alleviate the environmental issues in an acceptable manner?

Dangle seems to be THE leading authority on "constructive" scarring, and with the notation on the limitations of beak-seams in sandstone it seems he is suggesting a DrilledANGLE bolt ladder to work around said limitations. (Not that I'd even THINK of passing up an offer from one such as HE for a personal lesson in gear placements. What time will work for you? I hope you're fairly flexible on a time when aforementioned lesson may occur.)

One compromise I've worked out in my head is to drill shallow (inch and a half depth) 3/8ths holes and sleeve them with a 1" piece of steel. My theory behind this is that hooks serve to approximate the tenuousness of standing on beaks (or perhaps even more so... beaks have held more than one of my falls, though yet to prove themslelves in sandstone) while limiting the scarring action of placing/removing thin iron.

The steel sleeve will help to prevent the damage to the hole that hooking or friction-fitting a copperhead is sure to produce, while minimizing the visual impact, as they sit flush with the face of the hole. The idea for this came from seeing the sleeve from a 3/8ths bolt sticking out from a hole where someone had started a project, then backed off (?). With a little ingenuity they may be removed fairly easily, or driven sub-surface and patched over.

Some might say drilling hooks up a route is a tad contrived, however it may be a fine compromise between scarring which may prove to be useless (?) in the future, and not being able to access the area of rock which interests me most.

OTOH, the free-climbers in the area are not without their impact. Climbing some of the free routes in the immediate area reveals that micro-ledges and crack edges are quite worn by their repeated use. I'm sure that within my lifetime many of the often-used footholds on many of the more popular climbs will be non-existant, while some of the crack edges will have become more-rounded than they already have. I won't even mention ropes sawing through the rock at roof edges. (oops, I mentioned it)

So keeping the above discussion in consideration, is it an acceptable compromise to place drilled+sleeved hook holes next to a place where I would prefer to place a beak, when doing so would minimize the visual impact due to pin-scarring? This would also allow future ascentionists to appreciate the inspiration for doing the route in the first place. The "boldness" of the route would be dictated by where natural gear protection can be found, or where chicken bolts are added by future ascentionists. :p

I look forward to continuing this discussion, though by necessity it may take some time to do so, as i'm too busy working or having fun to hang out at mondo's for some internet service ( 75-cents for 5min? screw that, I'm not that much of an internet junkie).

Perhaps the line will continue up the rock, perhaps not. Regardless, there's a pretty cool place to hang a ledge and do some vertical camping should anyone wish for a Room With A View.


dangle


May 6, 2006, 9:17 PM
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When I was a kid we were all worried about hardened silos, so the prospect of "hardening" both placements AND holds promises a better future.

Some form of hardening is something I've sought for a number of years, though nothing so radical as inserts.

One possibility was recommended to me by the best desert climber ever, Kyle Copeland.
Supposedly there is some compound that paleontologists use to maintain the integrity of fossils that both penetrates and hardens.

Does anybody know any more about this?


paganmonkeyboy


May 7, 2006, 7:56 AM
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In reply to:
Supposedly there is some compound that paleontologists use to maintain the integrity of fossils that both penetrates and hardens.

something like these ? resin in solvent it looks like, put on thin...
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/...rep.htm#Consolidants


dangle


May 7, 2006, 9:54 AM
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Looks like the right stuff.

Application to a vertically oriented surface in a manner allowing sufficient penetration would appear to be the next problem.


stymingersfink


May 14, 2006, 6:01 PM
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In reply to:
Looks like the right stuff.

Application to a vertically oriented surface in a manner allowing sufficient penetration would appear to be the next problem.

I followed the link the other day and had a reply with questions I was working on when something happened and it was lost.

However, the gist was:

Would I need to treat the "resin hardened" placement as I would a glue-in bolt and refrain from subjecting it to stress for 24hrs, or perhaps just resin treat the hold/hole while cleaning?

The more porous the rock is, the more it would benefit... how much benefit would a relatively small area of variable-porosity rock treated actullay have?

What about when the resin turns yellow due to UV damage?

Issues with treating multiple holes with the gooey crap, as well as all issues associated with mixing the stuff in the field.


Truth be told, I've more a mind to continue up the line placing peckers and rurps, then drilling sleeved hook holes with a DeWalt portable hammer drill while cleaning. It gives a much cleaner hole than hand drilling, and the weight/time saved ration is fairly favorable too. OTOH, I could hand-drill on lead just as well, though the final results may not be nearly as pretty.

Summer is rapidly upon us, this thing probably won't be finished before October so feel free to offer input. If you come up with a more elegant solution I'd be happy to steal it from you (giving credit where credit is due of course).

In the meantime, I'm expecting to have some work this summer in the St. George area (I ended up working there last week). Shoot me a PM, mr. Dangle, if your offer for drilling lessons still stand.

~Sty


dangle


May 15, 2006, 1:34 PM
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Ha!

I just swung through Moab while the site was down.



Here's a little trick for y'all that might answer some of those "How'dja get those drilled angles on that ladder so damn far apart?" questions.

By getting T-ed off as high as possible I could quickly drill a quarter inch bolt straight in. Then later, no longer teetering on lead I would pull the little phucker and using much larger bits (and I'm not saying more) I would redrill the same hole at an angle and hilt a drilled angle with epoxy which would ooze into the pre-existing (horizontal) quarter inch hole as well thus "locking" the angle in even better!


imove2fast


May 23, 2006, 4:01 PM
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Ron, I have always wondered what your drilled angle secret was. Your experience and knowledge needs more widespread sharing.


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