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jsoper
May 1, 2006, 6:44 PM
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recommendation for half or twin ropes for ice/trad?
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hopper
May 1, 2006, 7:05 PM
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Half. Much more versatility with only some additional weight.
Or are you looking for specific recommendations?
I've used the Beal Ice lines (8.1mm). The only ones I've used, so I can't compare them to anything else, but they have gotten a bit fuzzy sooner than I would've liked. Other than that, great cords.
--JB
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treez
May 1, 2006, 7:13 PM
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Beal ice lines golden dry.
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redpoint73
May 1, 2006, 7:16 PM
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Beal Ice Line (hmm, do I sense a trend starting?). The lightest half ropes on the market, I think (8.1 mm). If you get the "Golden Dry", the core is also dry treated, which is nice for winter climbing.
I prefer half/doubles over twins. As hopper states, more versatile. You can greatly reduce the rope drag on meandering or traversing routes. For ice, I also prefer the idea of 2 completely independent lines due to the possibility of ice fall or all those sharp points on your gear chopping the rope.
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dr_monkey
May 1, 2006, 7:42 PM
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I am personally very found of my Mammut Phoenix half ropes (8.0mm, 41 g/m, ~$175 ea. 8 UIAA falls, 6.3 impact force) I have found that they are very durable, no fuzzing yet in 20+ pitches. 120 grams lighter than Ice lines for the whole rope system.
For comparison the Beal Ice line (8.1mm, 42 g/m, ~$159ea. 8 UIAA falls, 4.9 impact force) is not significantly different except for the price and impact force.
For the type of climbing I generally use half ropes for low impact force is a good thing.
Cheers,
DRS
P.S. Info was taken from the Mountain Tools website at http://www.mtntools.com/...oenixDynamicRope.htm and http://www.mtntools.com/...elineDynamicRope.htm
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treez
May 1, 2006, 8:15 PM
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The ice lines come in 70 meters which is nice for long routes. I can personally vouch for the dry treatment and I have seen the incredible low impact force in action (as in keeping a 30 foot ankle breaker fall on ice from turning into a 70 foot disaster on a dubious screw in a 6cm curtain!).
I'm sure the mammut set-up is great too, I have some of their single ropes and they're great.
Remember that these types of ropes are extremely slick and a regular reverso is sketchy.
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lstockett
May 2, 2006, 3:55 PM
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I've never done any ice climbing, but I sometimes use twin/half ropes for trad. I have a pair of PMI 8.6mm Fusion ropes that I really like. They're pretty light and have a good hand. They're also UIAA rated as both half and twin, which is useful. Not everyone is comfortable belaying a leader using half ropes so it's nice to be able to use them as twins if you want.
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mattm
May 2, 2006, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: Beal ice lines golden dry.
I'll throw in another Ice Lines vote. If you want them just so you can rap down a full length Ice Lines can function as both twins or doubles. If you're planning on a lot of double rope climbing - look at something larger like Beal Verdon , BW Excellence or Mammut 8.6s
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vegastradguy
May 2, 2006, 6:02 PM
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i'll vouch for the Bluewater Excellence lines. My pair is 2.5yrs old, seen at least a couple hundred pitches (probably more) and are still in excellent condition....in fact, i think they got their first tiny fuzzy spots about two months ago, but aside from about three or four of those, look brand new.
Hand on 'em is excellent, impact force is quite low for doubles, i think only the Beals have lower (surprise, surprise)- and the 8.6mm diameter is a great size- enough to instill confidence should you have to lead on one line or use 'em with a reverso (anything thinner than 8.6, i've found, and the reverso becomes a liability).
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redpoint73
May 2, 2006, 6:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Beal ice lines golden dry. I'll throw in another Ice Lines vote. If you want them just so you can rap down a full length Ice Lines can function as both twins or doubles.
I think this is untrue. Looking at Beal's site, I see no evidence that the Ice Lines are certified as twins. I am pretty sure you can only use them as double/half ropes.
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dirtineye
May 2, 2006, 6:48 PM
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Since you can get 8.1 ropes that are rated for twin of double use, do not get dedicated twins.
I used the PMI verglass, and the 8.5 mammuts, both are wonderful, both are like rubber bands, if you have not ever fallen on or beleayed with thin doubles you better practice a little, it's quite different.
I have had great success with the ATC XP and 8.1 as well as 8.5. Never felt a thing holding a fall yet.
PS I do NO ice climbing, I use doubles as the rope of choice trad climbing. Most of my expreienced pals prefer doubles for the extra saefy factor, and onw who shall remain nameless preferes doubles because when you drop one rope, you still have one left.
That is in fact the best reason for doubles IMNSHO.
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treez
May 2, 2006, 7:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Beal ice lines golden dry. I'll throw in another Ice Lines vote. If you want them just so you can rap down a full length Ice Lines can function as both twins or doubles. I think this is untrue. Looking at Beal's site, I see no evidence that the Ice Lines are certified as twins. I am pretty sure you can only use them as double/half ropes.
They work fine as twins. Of coarse, there are many little rules of thumb involved.
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mattm
May 2, 2006, 7:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Beal ice lines golden dry. I'll throw in another Ice Lines vote. If you want them just so you can rap down a full length Ice Lines can function as both twins or doubles. I think this is untrue. Looking at Beal's site, I see no evidence that the Ice Lines are certified as twins. I am pretty sure you can only use them as double/half ropes.
Well shoot - Beal has changed their website and specs then because I go the Ice Line BECAUSE they were rated for both twin and half use. I wonder if they're doing it because of the Joker? Regardless - the Ice Line I have are very useful - A Fav in redrocks where you have long, fairly direct pitches with long raps - climb the ice lines as twins, then rap happily. I used them as doubles in the gunks but would probably get the verdons or excellence (9mm or 8.6mm) because that 8.1 single strand running over a gunks roof is a little worrisome (never-mind that you have two strands!)
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redpoint73
May 2, 2006, 7:24 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Beal ice lines golden dry. I'll throw in another Ice Lines vote. If you want them just so you can rap down a full length Ice Lines can function as both twins or doubles. I think this is untrue. Looking at Beal's site, I see no evidence that the Ice Lines are certified as twins. I am pretty sure you can only use them as double/half ropes. They work fine as twins. Of coarse, there are many little rules of thumb involved.
Based in mattm's reply, it looks like the Ice Line used to be rated as twins. Whether they are now is unclear, and I would err on the side of caution. Why would they drop the twin cert if it was safe to use them that way?
Just so less experienced climbers are clear, it is generally UNSAFE to use half/double ropes as twins unless they are designed to do so.
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treez
May 2, 2006, 7:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Beal ice lines golden dry. I'll throw in another Ice Lines vote. If you want them just so you can rap down a full length Ice Lines can function as both twins or doubles. I think this is untrue. Looking at Beal's site, I see no evidence that the Ice Lines are certified as twins. I am pretty sure you can only use them as double/half ropes. Well shoot - Beal has changed their website and specs then because I go the Ice Line BECAUSE they were rated for both twin and half use. I wonder if they're doing it because of the Joker? Regardless - the Ice Line I have are very useful - A Fav in redrocks where you have long, fairly direct pitches with long raps - climb the ice lines as twins, then rap happily. I used them as doubles in the gunks but would probably get the verdons or excellence (9mm or 8.6mm) because that 8.1 single strand running over a gunks roof is a little worrisome (never-mind that you have two strands!)
You're good, man. This very question regarding these very ropes was hashed out in 2002. Brutus was able to find proof somewhere that they were in fact intended for either use. It has everything to do with the specific pitch being climbed.
On the beal site they specifically say the twins can't be used as halfs, but make no mention about not using ice lines as twins.
Your sig line really sums it up. Cheers!
Oh, and one more observation - They're called ice lines for a reason. They are extremely water resistant and perfect for suspect screws & what not. They WILL fuzz out quickly on ganite slablature.
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duncan_s
May 2, 2006, 8:24 PM
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They are a bit scary, they just don't look thick enough. However they are nice ropes and it makes the walk in nicer. I've had no problem belaying with them on an ATC XP. I can't remember if mine said they could be used as twin, I've done it as they are so stretchy.
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mattm
May 2, 2006, 8:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Beal ice lines golden dry. I'll throw in another Ice Lines vote. If you want them just so you can rap down a full length Ice Lines can function as both twins or doubles. I think this is untrue. Looking at Beal's site, I see no evidence that the Ice Lines are certified as twins. I am pretty sure you can only use them as double/half ropes. They work fine as twins. Of coarse, there are many little rules of thumb involved. Based in mattm's reply, it looks like the Ice Line used to be rated as twins. Whether they are now is unclear, and I would err on the side of caution. Why would they drop the twin cert if it was safe to use them that way? Just so less experienced climbers are clear, it is generally UNSAFE to use half/double ropes as twins unless they are designed to do so.
I think it's important to clarify why it MIGHT be unsafe to use halfs as twins. The above makes it sound like the ropes will snap or something.
issue 1) You must commit to using the ropes ONLY as twins or ONLY as doubles on a single pitch (both ropes clipped into EVERY piece Or ropes clipped into separate pieces)
issue 2) Halfs used as twins will increase the impact force (they're plenty strong ) on protection. The ice lines have very low impacts individually hence the reason I use them as twins as well (and the reason Beal USED to list them as dual purpose)
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