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jeremy11
May 3, 2006, 8:19 PM
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ok, so we all have our preferences on extendable cam slings or nonextendable cam slings. personally I like the extendable kind and just leave them extended all the time (with the biner rubber banded in place)
In the topic "Brand new CCH alien design (post recall 4/28/06)"
tgreene wrote:
In reply to: Doubled slings can be made available by special order, however there would be a slight upcharge. If there is enough call for them, they may materialize as standard equipment in the future, but there is currently no plan to do so.
In reply to: Please no double sling !! Just use your trad draw !!
all the "major companies" - CCH, BD, Metolius, Wild Country (DMM is the only "major company" to have extendable slings, except WC Zeros) all use non extendable slings, so if I get any of their stuff its either resling them or use the short slings I dont like so much (or rig something myself)
so why don't they start having both options - so when you get your cams from these companies, you can get either a short sling or an extendable sling
I realize that economically it is not an advantageous to them, but maybe with some consumer pressure this could become a reality!
what do you think?
Jeremy
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krusher4
May 3, 2006, 9:32 PM
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I cut off the manf. slings and just put my own on them. It's nice to have super fast placements on hard routes.
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rhythm164
May 3, 2006, 9:44 PM
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In reply to: I realize that economically it is not an advantageous to them,
Bingo, there's your answer.
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treez
May 3, 2006, 10:21 PM
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When I got my zeros last year, they were the first cams I had with the double sling. At first I thought it was cool, but soon realized that 4 inches of extension didn't really make much of a difference. Occasionally, it's enough, but most of the time I want more than that anyway. It seems easier to me to slap a shoulder sling onto the racking biner anyway. Sometimes it's a bitch to separate the two loops, especially with a standard notched biner.
That's what I think.
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maldaly
May 3, 2006, 10:37 PM
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What would you guys think of putting a 18" x 12mm Dyneema sling on the cams? You'd thread the sling like a trad draw (tripled) so it would carry like a 6" sling but would easily extend to an 18" runner. No more doubled up 'biners, no more QD's on trad pitches.
Mal
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mattm
May 3, 2006, 10:42 PM
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In reply to: When I got my zeros last year, they were the first cams I had with the double sling. At first I thought it was cool, but soon realized that 4 inches of extension didn't really make much of a difference. Occasionally, it's enough, but most of the time I want more than that anyway. It seems easier to me to slap a shoulder sling onto the racking biner anyway. Sometimes it's a b---- to separate the two loops, especially with a standard notched biner. That's what I think.
While a good idea - as stated above - the implementation to date has sucked. None of those slings extend more than 4 or so inches making the feature WORTHLESS - heck a biner is close to 3in long all by itself. the best solution I saw was someone on here (search anyone?) who had yates put 18in slings on that he tripled up - it was sweet looking
edit: it was none other than j_ung
http://img90.exs.cx/img90/2181/Rackola.jpg
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ambler
May 3, 2006, 10:57 PM
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In reply to: What would you guys think of putting a 18" x 12mm Dyneema sling on the cams? You'd thread the sling like a trad draw (tripled) so it would carry like a 6" sling but would easily extend to an 18" runner. No more doubled up 'biners, no more QD's on trad pitches. Mal
That said, I think a doubled sling is a fine idea. Bugs me to look down a pitch and see all these placements with a cam plus a quickdraw, 3 biners carried and used where I really needed just one.
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treez
May 3, 2006, 11:05 PM
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In reply to: What would you guys think of putting a 18" x 12mm Dyneema sling on the cams? You'd thread the sling like a trad draw (tripled) so it would carry like a 6" sling but would easily extend to an 18" runner. No more doubled up 'biners, no more QD's on trad pitches. Mal
That might be really cool. The only thing I'd wonder about would be a potential clusterfack on the rack. It has the potential to lower the number of biners carried and everything required for the placement would always be together. Why such a fat runner?
As I expressed in my above post, you really don't know until you try it out for a while.
I'm totally willing to test any prototypes. :wink:
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maldaly
May 3, 2006, 11:12 PM
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Look at j_ungs cams and imagine if it were 10mm or 12mm dyneema instead of 16mm. My draws are around 12" long from end-to end of 'biners. Add that to a 5" sling on a cam and we're already at 17". Eighteen inches seems about right....
Mal
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dudemanbu
May 3, 2006, 11:18 PM
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Mal, i think that's a good idea, but I'd recommend a little more market research than just Rc.com :wink:
If only there was someway to get 18" of mammut 8mm or even 6mm dyneema on those suckers....
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jimfix
May 3, 2006, 11:23 PM
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In reply to: If only there was someway to get 18" of mammut 8mm or even 6mm dyneema on those suckers....
Ever heard of the girth hitch?
I was thinking of doing this myself, but I need to save up for enough slings. The beauty of the 6 mm is you could triple it on old thumb stud cams (if only at ground level)
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hosh
May 3, 2006, 11:24 PM
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In reply to: Look at j_ungs cams and imagine if it were 10mm or 12mm dyneema instead of 16mm. My draws are around 12" long from end-to end of 'biners. Add that to a 5" sling on a cam and we're already at 17". Eighteen inches seems about right.... Mal
yes. I like this idea...
hosh.
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treez
May 3, 2006, 11:35 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If only there was someway to get 18" of mammut 8mm or even 6mm dyneema on those suckers.... Ever heard of the girth hitch?
Pretty sure hitching wire is ill-advised.
Anyone have any stats on strength reduction on plastic-coated wire?
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dr_monkey
May 3, 2006, 11:36 PM
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Mal,
Although I am not a huge fan of Trango's cams (sorry, I own an old flexcam #8, but I haven't climbed with either of the new designs, yet :wink: ) I would think about buying a few on the next round if they had triple slings. It is true that they might create a bit of cluster, but would save racking space. I might get a few of these for alpine stuff when I carry minimum cams and the route is likely to wander.
In fact I might try reslinging a couple of my Power Cams with triples when the time comes.
Cheers,
DRS
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jimfix
May 3, 2006, 11:47 PM
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In reply to: Pretty sure hitching wire is ill-advised. Anyone have any stats on strength reduction on plastic-coated wire?
Yes, it will lower the breaking strength. But when your hitching a 22 Kn sling to a cam rated at 5-15 Kn max, I doubt this is an issue. I have heard of climbers wrapping layers of tape around the U-wires to beef them out to give a larger surface.
In reply to: The girth hitch can reduce the strength of your runner combination to 66% of the strength of a runner/biner/runner combination.
Source
http://www.climerware.com/knot.shtml
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jimdavis
May 4, 2006, 12:08 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: If only there was someway to get 18" of mammut 8mm or even 6mm dyneema on those suckers.... Ever heard of the girth hitch? Pretty sure hitching wire is ill-advised. Anyone have any stats on strength reduction on plastic-coated wire?
I know of some tests that were done recently where the wires broke before the slings (nylong and spectra I think, not the new skinny dyneema)....and I know someone linked some specs Chris H. did with BD where the numbers were a lot lower than that. Those specs are around on here somewhere, I just forget where. Look in General for the "Online Test Results" thread...that had the link in there, I think.
Cheers,
Jim
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norushnomore
May 4, 2006, 12:22 AM
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12mm is still too wide to be practical but 6mm might work very nicely.
Malcom, any chance you can have your engineers girthhitch a 6mm sling and do a pull/drop test for us?
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treez
May 4, 2006, 12:27 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: If only there was someway to get 18" of mammut 8mm or even 6mm dyneema on those suckers.... Ever heard of the girth hitch? Pretty sure hitching wire is ill-advised. Anyone have any stats on strength reduction on plastic-coated wire? I know of some tests that were done recently where the wires broke before the slings (nylong and spectra I think, not the new skinny dyneema)....and I know someone linked some specs Chris H. did with BD where the numbers were a lot lower than that. Those specs are around on here somewhere, I just forget where. Look in General for the "Online Test Results" thread...that had the link in there, I think. Cheers, Jim
Awesome! I've noticed that nuetrinos and nanos will fit through the thumb loops on my zeros. It'll be sweet to take a shoulder sling with one biner and put it through the loop and into a hitch. Presto! But then there's still the racking biner.
If you were to hitch the loop, form a tripled draw, and rack it (so as to avoid the extra racking biner), wouldn't the hitch cause havoc when trying to extend? That would be the reason for sewn.
Thoughts?
PS: Isn't extendable a word? It doesn't spell check. Curious.
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roy_hinkley_jr
May 4, 2006, 12:38 AM
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In reply to: I know of some tests that were done recently where the wires broke before the slings (nylon and spectra I think, not the new skinny dyneema)
Post the details...sounds like BS.
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gunkiemike
May 4, 2006, 1:02 AM
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I used to have a couple girth hitched cams (approx 1/2" dyneema slings on vinyl coated wire of Met. FCU's). Then I re-read the test results (Moyer's I think it was, coulda been the BD testing) and changed it to a "pass the sling through the wire and fold it in half" set up. I concluded from the testing that that set up was stronger. Of course I pretty much have to keep a biner on there all the time to avoid the sling falling out, but there's always a biner there anyway so it's no big deal. Rubber bands at both ends keep it real neat. I used 12" slings for this BTW.
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buckyllama
May 4, 2006, 1:07 AM
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I've been pondering doing the full-length (18" 24" whatever) slings on the cams. I'm just not sure it's worth it though. Here's my reasoning.
I place a lot of passive gear. It's not uncommon for me to place fewer than 2 cams on a given pitch. For cases like this I'd still need a pretty full compliment of trad draws. As of now I rack my cams 3 to a biner. So I'm only carrying 1 extra biner for every 3 cams. This has it's disadvantages, makes it hard to plug and go, but is one approach for economy of biners.
So let's say I'm climbing in an area that averages pitches of around 100', and I'm climbing stuff that is challenging for me. I would normally carry about 12 draws for this, 1 set of nuts, 4 tricams, 1 full set of cams (8) plus maybe 3 doubles in sizes I think I might need. That's 12 slings, 30 carabiners. (24 for draws + 6 racking) I still need to plan for mostly passive placements so I wouldn't be comfortable taking fewer than 9 draws, so if I did the full length sling cam mod, I would be carrying: 20 slings (9 draws + 11 cams) , 31 biners (18 for draws + 2 for racking passive + 11 for cams). The weight and gear carrying aspect doesn't add up for me. The biggest benefit is the ability to clip and go, but I don't think it's that worth it for me.
If you already rack your cams individually, then it's more worth it. You add some slingage but reduce biners. I've experimented with carrying slings over the shoulder with a single biner and girth hitching to the factory sling as needed, but it's too much work.
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dutyje
May 4, 2006, 2:08 AM
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In reply to: What would you guys think of putting a 18" x 12mm Dyneema sling on the cams? You'd thread the sling like a trad draw (tripled) so it would carry like a 6" sling but would easily extend to an 18" runner. No more doubled up 'biners, no more QD's on trad pitches. Mal
I'd be all over that!!
Would prefer 10mm, though. I've actually been wondering when some manufacturer would do that. Seems like a logical next step, and I've never understood why doubled slings seem to have caught on, but this innovation hasn't even been tested in the market.
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euroford
May 4, 2006, 2:12 AM
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though i think J has a really slick idea with those slings, i don't think i would really like it.
i was an early adopter of the doubled slings, as i was an early adopter of the DMM cams. at first i LOVED it. these days i've grown less enchanted with it. the problem isn't the doubled sling, its a poor execution on DMM's part for making the first generation slings too short.
the unextended length is to short, so you end up almost always having to extend it, and then extended its not always long enough. frequently its easier just to throw on a draw.
if the unextended length was the length as sewn on the alien (or even a touch longer) cams i could leave it as is sometimes, and when needed it could be long enouch when extended to be usefull. i know DMM made the slings longer on the next generation 4Cams but i have no first hand experience with them.
as a climber that does a good bit of aid, i like that the doubled slings saves me some draws. but it also pisses me off having to re double them when organizing the rack at changeovers. just another damn thing to do. for fast and light stuff i've actually told me partner 'don't f with the slings, just use a draw' to save those crucial seconds during the changeover.
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meesier42
May 4, 2006, 2:36 AM
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if you want something like j-ung check out MTN tools. they reling cams, nuts, hexes, etc.
http://www.mtntools.com/...ms/mt_camresling.htm
and no I don't work for them or anything, just planning to send them all of my cams at the end of the season to get it done.
If anyone has used them I would apprieciate feedback, as I have not used them for this yet.
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mattm
May 4, 2006, 4:48 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I know of some tests that were done recently where the wires broke before the slings (nylon and spectra I think, not the new skinny dyneema) Post the details...sounds like BS.
Not sure if that was exactly what happened but I believe the reason BD went with the wider nylon (also double layer at point of contact with sling like MET TCUS) is that as the force increases, a single layer of webbing bends too easily causing the cable to also bend at an increasing, acute angle. This sharp bend in the cable causes a reduction in strength.
I think something like Mammut 8mm or the WC 10mm (prefer this over the 8 and based on above comment, may be the better size anyway) sewn so when extended was like 15in or so would be SWEET. I would want to TEST this in the real world first though - things I thought were sweet turned out to suck when the rubber hit the road - ie crux clips and placements climbign at your max (Dovals come to mind) You want to plug clip and go as fast as possible
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