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sweetchuck
May 17, 2006, 1:44 PM
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Hi everyone, J_ung deleted my post on the 'If you have some questions about Israel (climbing here)' post saying it was too political and suggested that I could post it here if I wanted to. I figured I'd do that for a couple reasons. For one thing, I have seen some vile, hateful and mean spirited posts on all kinds of topics here on RC.com that obviously were not deleted, so what horrible Jew hating spray could have been in my invisible post? I just want to set the record straight that I am not a Jew hater, and I didn’t think my post was so vile or anything, here is what I posted (in relation to ‘if you have some questions about Israel…’):
Here’s a good place to start:
http://domino.un.org/...071fdb0!OpenDocument
and:
http://domino.un.org/...045a309!OpenDocument
"a land with no people for a people with no land"
Well, except for the Palestinians...
That was it. The links are to part I and II of a UN published history of Palestine from about 1910 to present. I am not an expert on Israeli history by any stretch, and I can’t say whether the UN history is balanced or horribly biased, but I do think it is important for people to understand this history that has lead to much of the instability in the world today.
Now, the other reason I wanted to put the post up here is because you would think that the history of the central conflict of one of the most instable places on the planet would be relevant to climbers interested in climbing there, and would be useful in a thread for people with questions about climbing there. Perhaps if the UN published history is too political for a post about Israel, the problem lies with Israel, and not with my post.
Just to be clear, I am not trying to say this is a black/white, good/evil sort of thing, and I’m not saying there are not two sides to the story. I do think that people who are interested in climbing in a country where people strap bombs to themselves and blow up busses, and where the military roll over houses with bull dozers and conduct target assassinations may be interested in the history that has led to the current situation. There are lots of dangerous and instable places in the world with great climbing. I think it does the readers here a disservice not to allow information about the nature of the conflict to supplement the climbing information to provide a clearer picture. I have a feeling if the thread had been about climbing in Pakistan, or Columbia a historical reference would not have been banned. Well, at any rate, I am not really trying to get a conversation started about Israel, but wouldn’t mind one. I just wanted to set the record straight on what I said that was too political for the Israel thread. I sure hope they have success in working out their differences there.
Oh, by the way "a land with no people for a people with no land" was an old Zionist slogan although they kept quite about it around the Palestinians.
sc
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madriver
May 17, 2006, 1:55 PM
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heh....dude....the Palestinians are a bunch of whinning crybabies....here in good ole Merica...we got what you call Merican Indians.....hah....we didn't even give em a chance...we just shipped around until they were dead or were living where no one else would. So screw the Palestinians...tell em to grow some balls and shut the f#ck up already.
love
MaD
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skinner
May 17, 2006, 2:04 PM
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un-flippin believable :roll:
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wjca
May 17, 2006, 2:18 PM
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How 'bout a summary. Those links were fucking long.
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sweetchuck
May 17, 2006, 2:35 PM
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Here's a shorter one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/...Palestinian_conflict
But you have to understand that it is a complex history so you lose some important facts when you cut it short. One thing I noticed was missing in the wikipedia history is summed up in this part of the UN history:
" The origins of the Palestine problem as an international issue, however, lie in events occurring towards the end of the First World War. These events led to a League of Nations decision to place Palestine under the administration of Great Britain as the Mandatory Power under the Mandates System adopted by the League. In principle, the Mandate was meant to be in the nature of a transitory phase until Palestine attained the status of a fully independent nation, a status provisionally recognized in the League's Covenant, but in fact the Mandate's historical evolution did not result in the emergence of Palestine as an independent nation.
The decision on the Mandate did not take into account the wishes of the people of Palestine, despite the Covenant's requirements that "the wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory". This assumed special significance because, almost five years before receiving the mandate from the League of Nations, the British Government had given commitments to the Zionist Organization regarding the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine, for which Zionist leaders had pressed a claim of "historical connection" since their ancestors had lived in Palestine two thousand years earlier before dispersing in the "Diaspora"."
and: " In the course of the protracted correspondence, the Sherif unequivocally demanded "independence of the Arab countries", specifying in detail the boundaries of the territories in question, which clearly included Palestine. McMahon confirmed that "Great Britain is prepared to recognize and support the independence of the Arabs in all the regions within the limits demanded by the Sherif of Mecca". "
In short, the leaders of the Ottoman empire gave the League of Nations their support in WWI in return for guarantees of their independence. This guarantee was not honored.
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madriver
May 17, 2006, 3:53 PM
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skinner wrote:
In reply to: un-flippin believable
...yeah...I'm glad you realize how inane your post is.
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sweetchuck
May 17, 2006, 4:19 PM
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I think a modern day analogy (an imperfect one of course) would be if the UN gave the US responsibility for taking care of Iraq and helping it become a stable independent state with the expressed condition that the will of the Iraqis will be principal in any plan, and instead the US made a secret agreement to help establish a homeland for Southern Baptists (because some their ancestors lived there 2000 years ago, and the Southern Baptists currently don’t have their own country), and the US government provided logistical and military support to help the Southern Baptists create their new country. The Iraqis will be kept in the dark about the plan as long as possible, and of course when they figure it out, armed resistance ensues (with tanks and jets if they have any and with any means necessary if they don’t).
To me it is pretty cut and dried that Great Britain was in the wrong to use it’s position to help establish Israel, and the history is full of lies and deception to make the Palestinians think Great Britain was acting on their behalf when it was not, but that was almost 100 years ago. The fact that it was wrong does not change the fact that it happened. A solution to this problem now is going to have to involve concessions on both sides. What a mess!
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wjca
May 17, 2006, 4:56 PM
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The Southern Baptists have their own county: Mississippi. They also have shotguns, and know how to use them.
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madriver
May 17, 2006, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: A solution to this problem now is going to have to involve concessions on both sides. What a mess
...you're a grad student aren't you?
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jt512
May 17, 2006, 6:00 PM
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In reply to: I do think that people who are interested in climbing in a country where people strap bombs to themselves and blow up busses, and where the military roll over houses with bull dozers and conduct target assassinations may be interested in the history that has led to the current situation. There are lots of dangerous and instable places in the world with great climbing.
Indeed, which leads one to wonder why you posted, unprompted by anyone expressing an interest in climbing there, about Israel specifically. I conclude that you are just using climbing as an excuse to express a specific political, presumably pro-Palestinian, agenda.
Jay
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sweetchuck
May 17, 2006, 6:16 PM
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Maybe you are right Jay. I saw a thread for questions about a place that I have read some about and am somewhat interested in and I though I’d share a link to information about the place. Sure, I am saddened by the plight of the Palestinians, I am also appalled by some of their tactics. I just didn’t know that posting that information would be so unwelcome.
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madriver
May 17, 2006, 6:31 PM
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sweetchuck wrote:
In reply to: I just didn’t know that posting that information would be so unwelcome.
...it's not that it is unwelcome. It's the....
A) Second most volatile topic behind "Bolt Chopping"
B) Disguising the topic with a climbing veil
C) well thought out and consise point you are trying to make
...this is community and we reserve the right to flame you as we see fit. Kinda like what the Jewish Insurgents did to the British in 1947...dig....
love
MaD
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organic
May 17, 2006, 6:32 PM
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Name more than two palestinian leaders ever. Yassir Arafat and Mamoud Abbas are the only ones ever. This is akin to the hispanics trying to make California their own country. The Red Cross has the same status with the UN as "palestine" does, both observers.
What about Prussia? It existed until the 1930-1940 as an actual empire/country. Palestine no more deserves a country than Italian-Americans(we would probably take New York or Maybe the Chicago area).
ie. wikipedia
"The term "Palestine" comes from the word Philistine, the name of an ethnic group which lived in the southern coast of the region. The Philistines disappeared as a distinct group by the Assyrian period."
PLP: People for the Liberation of Prussia!
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pinktricam
May 17, 2006, 6:35 PM
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I learned everything I ever needed to know about the subject from reading Leon Uris novels.
...oh yeah and the Bible, too
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pinktricam
May 17, 2006, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: This is akin to the hispanics trying to make California their own country. |
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sevrdhed
May 17, 2006, 6:49 PM
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Hey... I just got the word that someone said "Bolt chopping" in here. Where are they?! Is it Ken Nichols? Let's lynch 'em!
Steve
P.S. I think Israel and Palestine should just hug each other. What can't be resolved by a good hug? Besides bolt chopping, that is.
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thorne
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May 17, 2006, 6:54 PM
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One month ago (April 17th), another anti-Semetic thread was started in this forum.http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/111082
What's the deal with you guys?
On June 17th, should we expect a thread about large Jewish banking families orchestrating various political revolutions and machinations throughout Europe and America since the late eighteenth century, with the ultimate aim of bringing about a New World Order?
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pinktricam
May 17, 2006, 7:01 PM
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In reply to: On June 17th, should we expect a thread about large Jewish banking families orchestrating various political revolutions and machinations throughout Europe and America since the late eighteenth century, with the ultimate aim of bringing about a New World Order? |
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jred
May 17, 2006, 7:13 PM
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In reply to: One month ago (April 17th), another anti-Semetic thread was started in this forum. http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/111082 What's the deal with you guys? On June 17th, should we expect a thread about large Jewish banking families orchestrating various political revolutions and machinations throughout Europe and America since the late eighteenth century, with the ultimate aim of bringing about a New World Order?
How is discussing the politics of the middle east and Israel's legitimacy anti-semetic?
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sweetchuck
May 17, 2006, 7:19 PM
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There’s nothing anti-Semitic about my post at all. I don’t have a problem with Jews, in fact I am deeply in love with one. I am just interested in the Israel issue because it has caused so much suffering and instability, and because so much of my tax dollars are being sent there to arm one side of the conflict. These posts are getting kinda silly. I just wanted to make this thread to be clear about my invisible overly political post. I’ll just say again that this is an issue with two sides, and step aside so you can paint me as whatever kinda hitler you like.
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thorne
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May 17, 2006, 7:34 PM
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I guess the fact that you used the term "jew hate" twice in your opening paragraph kind of colored my view of you. In reply to: so what horrible Jew hating spray could have been in my invisible post? I just want to set the record straight that I am not a Jew hater,
Also, preaching to a bunch of strangers tends to put people off.
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pinktricam
May 17, 2006, 7:38 PM
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In reply to: Also, preaching to a bunch of strangers tends to put people off. |
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rockguide
May 17, 2006, 8:31 PM
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....
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madriver
May 17, 2006, 8:34 PM
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sweetchuck wrote:
In reply to: I am just interested in the Israel issue because it has caused so much suffering and instability, and because so much of my tax dollars are being sent there to arm one side of the conflict.
...heyyyyyy....wait a minute...you mean there is a conflict in the Middle East between Arabs, Jews, Muslims, and the United States!!!!!! ...or just the Arabs and the Jews? Anyway I'm sure one of them is right and the misunderstanding will be cleared up soon.....
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