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papounet
May 23, 2006, 10:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Hope the climber is okay. The laughable part is all the posers shouting "troll." The OP gave a good report that didn't place undue blame on the gym or the rope manufacturer. The mode of failure is entirely plausible and has happened many times before. A good reminder on the importance of storing ropes away from acid fumes. The OP said nothing about "acid fumes." Additionally, even if that does turn out to be the cause of failure in this case, that most certainly has not "happened many times before." Retard. Curt
[quote="dirtineye
OK Roy, you're on.
Cite the numerous documented times that a climbing rope has parted because of acid.
Go ahead, I'm sure you know of many.
Really.
We are waiting Roy.
Dear Curt, dear dirtineye,
I am under the impression that you have been given the answer to your questons.
The Op said "many times"
Curt called him a retard,
Dirtineye called for evidence.
there has been 3 documented incidents which the german and austrian climber association investigated (out of a total of 9 ropes failures during the same period).
it does not investigatae incident elsewhere in the world)
Ther are probably simialr incidents reported in anam.
I am almost certain that cavers association have reported similar accidents.
"Many times" in my book (please remember that english is not my native language) may mean "more than once", if may mean in other context "relatively often".
(even if you were o take that stance, 3/9 is 1 out 3 of rope failure is due to a chemical/acid damage, that would be quite high a level, wouldn't it).
Although, dear Curt, dear dirtineye, I can't stop being impressed by the speed of your poncing on newbies, I believe that you would have been best inspired to be less aggressive in that particular instance.
I would even go as far as recommend to you that you wrote a small message with a subtle touch of apology (yes, I am sure that you could do this) or acknolewdging that Roy was indeed right in it happended "a few times" and that regular precaution such as avoiding leaving the rope near a car battery are good ideas
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sbaclimber
May 23, 2006, 10:23 PM
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In reply to: Although, dear Curt, dear dirtineye, I can't stop being impressed by the speed of your pouncing on newbies, I believe that you would have been best inspired to be less aggressive in that particular instance.
But, as a counter argument (to the 'be nice to the n00b' argument), I would like to offer this:
If you are going to post any sort of opinion on a forum such as that provided by RC.com, you should be prepared for people to flame you for it.
The big question is, can you back up your claim? If not, then suck it up and be ready to admit you are (or at least may be) wrong.
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dirtineye
May 23, 2006, 11:52 PM
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Many does not mean merely more than once.
Many is an antonym to few.
Short bus for you, with respect, Mr P. You can sit in the front.
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the_mitt
May 24, 2006, 1:39 AM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:53 PM)
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dirtineye
May 24, 2006, 2:55 AM
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In reply to: Man this thread has degenerated so badly that I think I wanna bring the Alien threads back to life. At least we stayed on topic with our flames. F0 for all except maybe F2 for dirt re: the short bus comments :lol: Mitt
I stand on the shoulders of giants. Curt introduced me to the rhetorical value of the short bus ploy. Study at the foot belay of the master, and learn.
And I am sure this thread will snap back (hehe) when the test results are in.
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roy_hinkley_jr
May 24, 2006, 3:57 AM
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In reply to: Study at the foot belay of the master, and learn.
Ah, this would be clown school then. You're both excelling. :lol:
Let's assume that it would take at least a 50% cut of the mantel and core for the rope to break under such a low factor fall. Please explain how this can go unnoticed. Even a 20% cut would be hard to miss and still have plenty of reserve.
Improperly cooking the rope doesn't weaken the nylon, merely increases the impact force. So if that's your theory, explain how this low-stretch/high-ouch rope goes unnoticed by anyone using others from the same batch for several years.
The sheath pattern indicates it may not be a dynamic rope, in which case all bets are off. But a control strip is visible so the model and batchl will easily be resolved. Nobody has mentioned the belay device yet.
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reno
May 24, 2006, 4:36 AM
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People:
Be nice.
That is all.
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dirtineye
May 24, 2006, 5:35 AM
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In reply to: People: Be nice. That is all.
Killjoy.
what are you anyway, the nanny?
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sactownclimber
May 24, 2006, 7:15 AM
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Lest anybody still think this is a hoax, I was at Pipeworks tonight, and spoke with the gym staff. The rope did in fact break during a lead test at Pipeworks. They (the gym) don't (at least, publicly) know why the rope broke. There was nothing wrong with the biner that "caught" him. They confirmed that the rope is being sent to BD for analysis.
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papounet
May 24, 2006, 7:41 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Although, dear Curt, dear dirtineye, I can't stop being impressed by the speed of your pouncing on newbies, I believe that you would have been best inspired to be less aggressive in that particular instance. I am not defending anyone's actions or what anyone has said in the past 4 pages worth of posts, nor do I really care one way or the other. But, as a counter argument (to the 'be nice to the n00b' argument), I would like to offer this: If you are going to post any sort of opinion on a forum such as that provided by RC.com, you should be prepared for people to flame you for it. The big question is, can you back up your claim? If not, then suck it up and be ready to admit you are (or at least may be) wrong.
It is not about 'be nice to the n00b'.
it is about fairness.
the original claim was "The mode of failure is entirely plausible and has happened many times before."
Mental deficiency was affirmed by curt and dirtineye as a shortcut to challenging the veracity of that claim.
Numbers were given.
Although FEW in total number of accidents, damage by acid has identified in MANY rope breakage accident (3 out of 9).
Curt and al. may be as harsh as they wish (that is treat nearly every dissenting opinion as if coming from a noob (and they mostly right at it)).
In that particular case, if they had offered to eat their hat if the claim was prooven, I would expect them to munch their headdress a bit.
Why so ???
It is my revolutionnary nature to seek the clay at the foot of someone's else giant, especially is that someone else is perched on the shoulder of the said giant.
Here come curt, winner of many rumbles
and dirtineye, his worthy double.
Would they be more humble
if they were toppled ?
So quick to condemn the novices' fumbles,
they now stand dejected amidst the rubbles.
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dutyje
May 24, 2006, 11:50 AM
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I think that it would be a good idea to examine the 'biner more closely, and maybe have it sent to BD. I am aware of two core shots resulting from small lead falls at our local gym within the last year. I know that at least the one I saw first-hand came from a carabiner that somehow cross-loaded after the climber moved past it and then fell. It wouldn't surprise me if the BD tests came back indicating something like a cut over a sharp edge. Although I still have to believe (hope) that some sort of inadvertant chemical exposure is at play here.
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sterlingjim
May 24, 2006, 1:35 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Study at the foot belay of the master, and learn. Improperly cooking the rope doesn't weaken the nylon, merely increases the impact force. So if that's your theory, explain how this low-stretch/high-ouch rope goes unnoticed by anyone using others from the same batch for several years.
Not necessarily true. If the temperature is too high the nylon weakens significantly. If it is too low the nylon will have a lower elasticity so may not be able to absorb enough of the force and could break, though not in most typical falls and certainly not in this case.
In reply to: [ The sheath pattern indicates it may not be a dynamic rope, in which case all bets are off. But a control strip is visible so the model and batchl will easily be resolved. Nobody has mentioned the belay device yet.
The pattern does not indicate a non-dynamic rope to me. Also the geometry of the core and sheath indicate a dynamic rope.
The identifier tape will only tell who made the rope, in what year and quarter, and the standard to which it complies. It will not have any batch information or model.
There is unlikely to be any 'tests' on the rope but rather an inspection of the broken filaments under a microscope. Depending on what is found in the inspection there maaaayyyy be some chemical analysis or tensile tests of individual yarns. A chemical analysis would consist of an extraction which can be performed by any decent chemical/textile lab. A tensile test will give information about the strength and elasticity of the nylon yarn.
It would be irresponsible of me to make any serious assessment at this point considering my position in the rope industry. All the pseudo expert testimonies are only confusing the whole issue. Everyone should stop guessing.
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adnix
May 24, 2006, 1:38 PM
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In reply to: I am aware of two core shots resulting from small lead falls at our local gym within the last year. I know that at least the one I saw first-hand came from a carabiner that somehow cross-loaded after the climber moved past it and then fell. It wouldn't surprise me if the BD tests came back indicating something like a cut over a sharp edge. |
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dirtineye
May 24, 2006, 1:57 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Study at the foot belay of the master, and learn. Improperly cooking the rope doesn't weaken the nylon, merely increases the impact force. So if that's your theory, explain how this low-stretch/high-ouch rope goes unnoticed by anyone using others from the same batch for several years. Not necessarily true. If the temperature is too high the nylon weakens significantly. If it is too low the nylon will have a lower elasticity so may not be able to absorb enough of the force and could break, though not in most typical falls and certainly not in this case. In reply to: [ The sheath pattern indicates it may not be a dynamic rope, in which case all bets are off. But a control strip is visible so the model and batchl will easily be resolved. Nobody has mentioned the belay device yet. The pattern does not indicate a non-dynamic rope to me. Also the geometry of the core and sheath indicate a dynamic rope. The identifier tape will only tell who made the rope, in what year and quarter, and the standard to which it complies. It will not have any batch information or model. There is unlikely to be any 'tests' on the rope but rather an inspection of the broken filaments under a microscope. Depending on what is found in the inspection there maaaayyyy be some chemical analysis or tensile tests of individual yarns. A chemical analysis would consist of an extraction which can be performed by any decent chemical/textile lab. A tensile test will give information about the strength and elasticity of the nylon yarn. It would be irresponsible of me to make any serious assessment at this point considering my position in the rope industry. All the pseudo expert testimonies are only confusing the whole issue. Everyone should stop guessing.
There's your basic expert talking. Notice the sterling in the name sterlingjim.
Glad you decided to speak publicly jim!
See how he wants real info before making a pronouncement?
See how he knows what he is talking about?
See how he's calling for mindless factless speculation to end?
Many are cold but few are frozen!
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billcoe_
May 24, 2006, 2:54 PM
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In reply to: There is unlikely to be any 'tests' on the rope but rather an inspection of the broken filaments under a microscope. Depending on what is found in the inspection there maaaayyyy be some chemical analysis or tensile tests of individual yarns. A chemical analysis would consist of an extraction which can be performed by any decent chemical/textile lab. A tensile test will give information about the strength and elasticity of the nylon yarn. It would be irresponsible of me to make any serious assessment at this point considering my position in the rope industry. All the pseudo expert testimonies are only confusing the whole issue. Everyone should stop guessing.
thank you!
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dingus
May 24, 2006, 3:12 PM
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When all you internet analysts decide what happened to this rope, be sure to post up.
DMT
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cracklover
May 24, 2006, 3:27 PM
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click the pic for the link
G:roll:
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dirtineye
May 24, 2006, 3:43 PM
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In reply to: click the pic for the link G:roll:
The correct pair up, if your dumbassed attempt at derision were to be anywhere near apt, would be Spike & Tyke, as if you actually knew what I'm talking about.
In reality, we are more like Laurel and Hardy.
But I always love taking flack form someone who was afraid to lead anything until they had been climbing for 5 years.
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paganmonkeyboy
May 24, 2006, 4:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I am aware of two core shots resulting from small lead falls at our local gym within the last year. I know that at least the one I saw first-hand came from a carabiner that somehow cross-loaded after the climber moved past it and then fell. It wouldn't surprise me if the BD tests came back indicating something like a cut over a sharp edge. Carabiners cause core shots, not clean cuts such as this. Have a look at the pictures on page 3.
(slight off topic...)
does anyone know of a good write up about small radius carabiners, rope diameter, and core shots under high loading ? I'm curious to see the stats on what the smaller biners might do to a rope...
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cracklover
May 24, 2006, 5:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: click the pic for the link G:roll: The correct pair up, if your dumbassed attempt at derision were to be anywhere near apt, would be Spike & Tyke, as if you actually knew what I'm talking about. In reality, we are more like Laurel and Hardy. But I always love taking flack form someone who was afraid to lead anything until they had been climbing for 5 years.
Wrong as usual. If you're going to make fun of my climbing - better to be accurate and ridicule me for something really bad - like the fact that I hid in the gym for my whole first season! Happy to share the rest of my climbing history, but this isn't the thread to get into it.
GO
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dirtineye
May 24, 2006, 8:25 PM
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WEll, cracklover, I can make no greater insult, real or imagined, than the one you have put on yourself, about the (shudder) gym.
You win.
But you still should know who Spike & Tyke are.
N00B.
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dirtineye
May 24, 2006, 8:26 PM
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Yep, that's us.
Who took that pic?
Oh yeah, you'd think Curt could afford a better car, wouldn't you?
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