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jman
May 30, 2006, 3:34 PM
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I was at the Gunks the other weekend and came upon a group of folks that were setting up top ropes on the first pitch of a number of very popular climbs. When we got there they had just dropped the top rope for their second climb and were getting ready to set up two more ropes along the GT ledge. I will preface this and say that I do believe in the first come, first serve attitude at the crag, but I would have a hard time justifying taking up an entire face with top ropes, especially when not all of them were in use. We chatted with them and they were nice enough to let us lead up past them when their ropes were not being used. Later when some other folks came up to the crag and confronted them about setting up all the TR's as not being right, the TR folks had the opinion that the people they were letting lead past them were lucky they were even letting them do that, because they were there first. Just curious what other folks think about this.
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jammer
May 30, 2006, 3:43 PM
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Personal feelings ... if you are the first on a particular climb, it's yours, but to stitch up a whole section just ain't right. I've come across this at Rumney and thought that they were just assholes and moved on. That said, my gut feeling was to pull their rope and climb. What will be next? Pull into an already crowed parking lot to find people standing in the only vacant parking spaces refusing to move cause their friend will be driving in within the next half hour?
If there are enough climbers to climb the routes, that's one thing. But to rope up climbs that they will be climbing later is purely wrong. Where are the ethics?
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gunksgoer
May 30, 2006, 3:44 PM
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Yes, it is frustrating. I have seen many parties set up a TR on horseman and camp out there for hours. People should realize that this is very rude, but many are oblivious. Ethics dictate that ground up parties have priority over topropers, but it seems that if people are setting up alot of topropes then they dont have a traditional background. If someone has been hogging a climb for more than an hour or so, try politely pointing out that their top rope party is preventing others from leading the route, and ask if you can quickly run up beside the tr.
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alpine_monk
May 30, 2006, 4:10 PM
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leaders right. period. if a few folks in a party all want to TR a route after its been lead thats one thing. if a gaggle of gumbies have a whole wall tied up thats when I start pulling ropes.
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waltereo
May 30, 2006, 4:22 PM
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The other major problems I saw a couple time with those topropers
is that they thread their rope through the rappel rings of the bolted anchor instead of building their own anchor
- the rings will wear 100x times faster
- People who are rappelling are stuck at that place
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chossmonkey
May 30, 2006, 4:39 PM
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IMHO people willing to stick their neck out and lead a route should ALWAYS have priority over top ropers.
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blueeyedclimber
May 30, 2006, 5:01 PM
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In reply to: IMHO people willing to stick their neck out and lead a route should ALWAYS have priority over top ropers.
This just screams of arrogance and ignorance. Get off your high horse! Now let me jsut say that I hate toproping. It's kind of a PITA and it just doesn't give me the exhilaration of leading. BUT, it is not for everyone, and to claim that you are somehow entitled to more because you lead, just makes you an asshole. When ever I approach a group that has done this they have usually made accomodations for me. I dont' like when a whole section is taken over, but if you respect other people then they will respect you back.
Josh
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kubi
May 30, 2006, 5:14 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: IMHO people willing to stick their neck out and lead a route should ALWAYS have priority over top ropers. This just screams of arrogance and ignorance. Get off your high horse! Now let me jsut say that I hate toproping. It's kind of a PITA and it just doesn't give me the exhilaration of leading. BUT, it is not for everyone, and to claim that you are somehow entitled to more because you lead, just makes you an asshole. When ever I approach a group that has done this they have usually made accomodations for me. I dont' like when a whole section is taken over, but if you respect other people then they will respect you back. Josh
well said. top-ropers have just as much right to be there as leaders do. That being said, they shouldn't monopolize a route all day long. Fortunatly I've never had to deal with stubborn top-ropers. A quick, "would you mind taking your rope down so I can climb this?" has always worked.
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climbingbetty22
May 30, 2006, 5:35 PM
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I encounterd this very situation his weekend. Personally, I tend to side with the OP on this. Especially at the Gunks, were, from what I understand, the Peterskill area is so much better suited for top-roping anyway. My boyfriend however, tends to favor the other side of the debate. I guess I just view it as a debate in climbing that will never end, much like the sport vs. trad thing, so given that there is little chance of the debate ever being settled, its a waste of energy to argue one side or the other, IMHO.
Besides, if you're a leader and you're really the shit, you'll just find yourself another hard-ass project lead up. It only sucks if you're a newbie leader like myself who I can only lead climbs up to grade X and those same grade climbs are the primo climbs for top-roping as well. *shrug* Just another reason to work on getting better I guess. :roll:
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neuroshock
May 30, 2006, 5:50 PM
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In reply to: The other major problems I saw a couple time with those topropers is that they thread their rope through the rappel rings of the bolted anchor instead of building their own anchor - the rings will wear 100x times faster - People who are rappelling are stuck at that place |
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olderic
May 30, 2006, 7:36 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: IMHO people willing to stick their neck out and lead a route should ALWAYS have priority over top ropers. This just screams of arrogance and ignorance. Get off your high horse! Now let me jsut say that I hate toproping. It's kind of a PITA and it just . Josh
Sorry Josh but I mostly agree with Choss on this one. I think most old school climbers agree that there is a well understood pecking order. As climbing has become more main stream it has been dummed down to appeal to the great (washed and perfumed) masses creeping out of the gyms and the sense of what climbing used to be - the basic tenents - are being lost. Too often there is no concept of why leading is "better" or even why anyone would even want to lead - you could get hurt after all. In the good old days you would very seldom see toproping at an area where leading was an option. People would much prefer to lead a 5.5 then TR a 5.10. but now the gym rats can't bother with anything under double digits but certainly can't lead them.. You've all heard the argument - dead horse time.
I'm not saying that a TR party should immediately get out of the way and bow down to the proscpective leaders. But if there is another party waiting to laed then they should be aware of it and limit their attempts to one per person in the party and also not have any 30 minute hang fests while someone hopelessly over their heads gets winched up "for the experience".
The TR monopolizers should be especially aware and considerant if they are tieing up some popular moderate route that the average climber at the crag could lead.
Where we were just 2 days ago Old Town was tied up all Saturday afternoon by a TR party as group after group of potential leaders walked past muttering and shaking their heads. Old Town is 5.7 - extremely well protected, has immaculate rock, might be the most poplular climb on the island - but by God the TR people were there first and they weren't leaving (or moving aside).
But I'm old - along with most of the similar thinkers. The TR-ers will undoubtable pervail soon.
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kubi
May 30, 2006, 7:41 PM
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In reply to: I'm not saying that a TR party should immediately get out of the way and bow down to the proscpective leaders. But if there is another party waiting to laed then they should be aware of it and limit their attempts to one per person in the party and also not have any 30 minute hang fests while someone hopelessly over their heads gets winched up "for the experience". The TR monopolizers should be especially aware and considerant if they are tieing up some popular moderate route that the average climber at the crag could lead.
I think we are in agreement here.
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jman
May 30, 2006, 7:55 PM
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In reply to: I'm not saying that a TR party should immediately get out of the way and bow down to the proscpective leaders. But if there is another party waiting to laed then they should be aware of it and limit their attempts to one per person in the party and also not have any 30 minute hang fests while someone hopelessly over their heads gets winched up "for the experience". The TR monopolizers should be especially aware and considerant if they are tieing up some popular moderate route that the average climber at the crag could lead.
I am in agreement with sentiment. Guess the thing that bugged me the most was that the four climbs that were taken up by top ropes were very popular two and three star climbs and some ropes were left idle as members of their group cheered each other on and hang dogged their way up.
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mtnbkrxtrordnair
May 30, 2006, 8:00 PM
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Just like anything else in climbing, the answer is it depends. If it's a climb where only the first pitch is done because the rest sucks, that's not as bad as tying up the first pitch of a *** 3-pitch climb where every pitch is classic. Also when the cliff is crowded TR parties should let everyone give it a go once, then move on. Leaving top ropes hanging when nobody is using them or they're having lunch screams idiot NooB and they need to go back to the gym. Do that s**t on a weekday when nobody cares.
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granite_grrl
May 30, 2006, 8:01 PM
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In reply to: leaders right. period. if a few folks in a party all want to TR a route after its been lead thats one thing. if a gaggle of gumbies have a whole wall tied up thats when I start pulling ropes.
You know, there's been many a time I've seen a rope left hanging, the climbers who put it up no where near the climb. I've been very tempted to pull the rope, but something always stops me. Just wondering how many people have actually pulled another parties rope with out their permission.
As far as the leaders superiority thing goes, it just seems that top ropes tend to have less consideration for other climbers than leaders do. There are ass-hole leaders who do things like run laps on a popular climb, I'll complain about them too. There are also very polite top ropers that offer to pull their rope to let others lead through.
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blueeyedclimber
May 30, 2006, 8:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: IMHO people willing to stick their neck out and lead a route should ALWAYS have priority over top ropers. This just screams of arrogance and ignorance. Get off your high horse! Now let me jsut say that I hate toproping. It's kind of a PITA and it just . Josh Sorry Josh but I mostly agree with Choss on this one. I think most old school climbers agree that there is a well understood pecking order. As climbing has become more main stream it has been dummed down to appeal to the great (washed and perfumed) masses creeping out of the gyms and the sense of what climbing used to be - the basic tenents - are being lost. Too often there is no concept of why leading is "better" or even why anyone would even want to lead - you could get hurt after all. In the good old days you would very seldom see toproping at an area where leading was an option. People would much prefer to lead a 5.5 then TR a 5.10. but now the gym rats can't bother with anything under double digits but certainly can't lead them.. You've all heard the argument - dead horse time. I'm not saying that a TR party should immediately get out of the way and bow down to the proscpective leaders. But if there is another party waiting to laed then they should be aware of it and limit their attempts to one per person in the party and also not have any 30 minute hang fests while someone hopelessly over their heads gets winched up "for the experience". The TR monopolizers should be especially aware and considerant if they are tieing up some popular moderate route that the average climber at the crag could lead. Where we were just 2 days ago Old Town was tied up all Saturday afternoon by a TR party as group after group of potential leaders walked past muttering and shaking their heads. Old Town is 5.7 - extremely well protected, has immaculate rock, might be the most poplular climb on the island - but by God the TR people were there first and they weren't leaving (or moving aside). But I'm old - along with most of the similar thinkers. The TR-ers will undoubtable pervail soon.
I partially agree with everything you said, Eric. Like it or not, however, climbing has changed over the years. Toproping has become an acceptable form of climbing. I am in agreement that it shows poor ethics to monopolize a climb all day that is a popular lead. I was also there that day in Acadia. Old Town is perhaps the best 5.7 pitch I have ever done. It even says in the guidebook not to monopolize this climb. What I disagree with, though, is the thought that leaders always have the right of way.
Instead of walking by shaking their heads, they should have approached the group with their thoughts. They may have respected that and moved on or maybe they wouldn't. I have seen just as many inconsiderate leaders as I have topropers (probably more).
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climbingbetty22
May 31, 2006, 11:38 AM
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Eric, I would agree with you, well said, IMO. Though I don't consider myself "old" so perhaps there is some hope for the next generation...
In reply to: Instead of walking by shaking their heads, they should have approached the group with their thoughts. They may have respected that and moved on or maybe they wouldn't. I have seen just as many inconsiderate leaders as I have topropers (probably more).
In my experience, this is one of those ideas that is better in theory then practice. For some reason, the general attitude I encounter alot of at the cliffs is one where no one wants to hear of any input or advice from other climbers. Whatever they are doing is absolutely right and everyone else is wrong and they should know that. I don't know, seems to just make the whole debate more complicated. It comes down to a basic principle- being considerate of others. This idea seemss to be coming extinct in our society at large, not just climbing. Everyone is out of themselves alone, damn everyone seems to be the prevailing attitude these days. :roll:
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blueeyedclimber
May 31, 2006, 12:24 PM
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In reply to: In my experience, this is one of those ideas that is better in theory then practice. For some reason, the general attitude I encounter alot of at the cliffs is one where no one wants to hear of any input or advice from other climbers. Whatever they are doing is absolutely right and everyone else is wrong and they should know that. I don't know, seems to just make the whole debate more complicated. It comes down to a basic principle- being considerate of others. This idea seemss to be coming extinct in our society at large, not just climbing. Everyone is out of themselves alone, damn everyone seems to be the prevailing attitude these days. :roll:
Well, climbingbetty, that is a very pessimistic view. In MY experience, MOST (not ALL), climbers will respect what you are saying if it is said right. If you come off in an attacking way, most people will be defensive. I have come to many a cliff, when a group has had multiple ropes set up. As a teacher and someone who has taken small groups out before, that is the best way to provide a good experience for everyone. It doesn't work well when you only set one rope up at a time. If one of their ropes iss not being used, I will asked to pull it or if it's not in the way of the lead, just leave it there. I have never had a problem. Now, if, like Eric was mentioning, that it is on one of the most popular leads at the crag, well that's just WRONG. But, most crags will have an area, that is usually considered the beginner area and is know as a good place for beginner's to toprope. Avoid those places.
I am somewhere in between of this argument (old school v. new school). I consider myself to have old school views, but have a healthy respect for the way climbing is today. It is a lot more accessable to a lot more people nowadays (which some of you don't like), but I am a product of that. I didn't start climbing until I was 30. Just because I have come a long way in 4 years, doesn't mean I am going to start turning my nose up at people who are where I was just a short time ago.
Josh
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crimpstrength
May 31, 2006, 2:19 PM
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First off, I only make the trip to the Gunks on a weeday.
Now I have a question. Last fall, Ribs at the Gunks. My brother led the first pitch, I followed. As he was leading, another group got to the base and told me they were going to follow us up, one of their guys leading behind us. Ok, no problem so far. We get to the top, set up our rap, do the first rap. We get to the second rap, at the top of the first pitch of ribs, and they have a TR set up. Their TR was set up through lockers attached to the anchors. We set up our rap through the chains and rapped down. When we got down, they had this huge attitude about us rapping on their TR. Where else should we have rapped? Were we wrong? Any opinions? I just got out the guidebook to look up what Mr. Williams has to say about it. He says that leaders have the right of way to rappellers. They were not leading though and there was no one on the route. Any ideas?
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crimpstrength
May 31, 2006, 2:25 PM
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In reply to: blueeyedclimber wrote: chossmonkey wrote: IMHO people willing to stick their neck out and lead a route should ALWAYS have priority over top ropers. This just screams of arrogance and ignorance. Get off your high horse! Now let me jsut say that I hate toproping. It's kind of a PITA and it just . Josh
Arrogance and ignorance???? Read Dick Williams guide book. It clearly states in the introduction that leaders have the right away. "Because this is a trad climbing area, custom dictates that the party that plans to lead has the right to go first. This means NO party that is climbing one route in order to TR an ajoining route should try to claim that route and stop another party from leading it."
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kubi
May 31, 2006, 2:40 PM
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In reply to: This means NO party that is climbing one route in order to TR an ajoining route should try to claim that route and stop another party from leading it."
well, this is a completely different situation, isn't it?
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crimpstrength
May 31, 2006, 2:46 PM
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Kubi,
yes it is a new situation, but I believe it can be related to the one in discussion. If a groups is leading a route to set up a TR and a group is leading to lead more than the first pitch, or leading to lead and rap, the group leading with plans of continuing should have the right away. Let me claer up my awful english there. Group A is leading to set a TR. Group B is leading to either go higher or lead and rap off the route and leave the area. Group B gets the route first.
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jman
May 31, 2006, 2:53 PM
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In reply to: Now I have a question. Last fall, Ribs at the Gunks. My brother led the first pitch, I followed. As he was leading, another group got to the base and told me they were going to follow us up, one of their guys leading behind us. Ok, no problem so far. We get to the top, set up our rap, do the first rap. We get to the second rap, at the top of the first pitch of ribs, and they have a TR set up. Their TR was set up through lockers attached to the anchors. We set up our rap through the chains and rapped down. When we got down, they had this huge attitude about us rapping on their TR. Where else should we have rapped? Were we wrong? Any opinions? I just got out the guidebook to look up what Mr. Williams has to say about it. He says that leaders have the right of way to rappellers. They were not leading though and there was no one on the route. Any ideas?
IMO the guys TR'ing were in the wrong for complaining. The anchors are there as rap stations and not top rope anchors so I would think people rapping have priority.
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chossmonkey
May 31, 2006, 3:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: IMHO people willing to stick their neck out and lead a route should ALWAYS have priority over top ropers. This just screams of arrogance and ignorance. Get off your high horse! Now let me jsut say that I hate toproping. It's kind of a PITA and it just doesn't give me the exhilaration of leading. BUT, it is not for everyone, and to claim that you are somehow entitled to more because you lead, just makes you an asshole. When ever I approach a group that has done this they have usually made accomodations for me. I dont' like when a whole section is taken over, but if you respect other people then they will respect you back. Josh
Yep, that's me MR. Arrogant Ignorant.
To tell you the truth you don't get onto a high horse by top roping. :twisted:
What's not for everyone, leading?
Maybe so, but not every cliff needs to be a top rope cliff either. There are plenty of cliffs and gyms where top roping endlessly is fully accepted. The Gunks don't need to be one of them.
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