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sixleggedinsect
Jun 1, 2006, 6:34 AM
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i want an absolutely bombproof attachment between my harness and a cinch for rope soloing. i have a big steel biner, but its heavy and long enough that the distance between harness and cinch is annoying.
ideally, i'd like to use a quicklink. the common 3/8" links are generally rated to one or two thousand pounds, with safety factors from 5:1 to 10:1.
so, it sounds reasonable, but i dont want to die.
has anyone had any experience with a quicklink ever breaking? does it happen? is this an appropriate application (assuming i buy a name brand link)? is there a better product i should look into?
i am not happy with Al lockers because i could crossload and break them in a worst case fall.
i suppose i could tape an aluminum locker so that it could not crossload, or use the belaymaster-type biners, but a shorter connection from cinch to harness would still be desirable for me.
-anthony
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t-dog
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Jun 1, 2006, 6:40 AM
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I'm not sure how you would set up a cinch for rope soloing, but if you're main concern is to prevent cross-loading, there might be another option available.
Notably, if there is any kind of upper loop-hole or attachment on the top of the cinch, you can tie a piece of webbing through that, make a big loop, and put it over your head. That way when you stand up, you will naturally pull the cinch upright.
Of course, if you're in the habit of doing full back-bends while climbing, this might not work, but if not, it's something to think about.
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treez
Jun 1, 2006, 6:42 AM
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I attach my soloist to my belay loop with 7mm cord. I'm not familiar with the cinch. It might be too sharp or something. The soloist has a huge radius.
I don't see why a quicklink wouldn't work. You might want to tighten it with a wrench and tape it.
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majid_sabet
Jun 1, 2006, 7:25 AM
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You just had a bad dream and nothing is going to happen to you unless your time is up, trust me
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naitch
Jun 1, 2006, 12:51 PM
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I've also used a quick link for attaching my Grigri for top rope soloing. I'm not sure what diameter but probably it was a 3/8". It worked fine. I'm not sure about the breaking strength for lead soloing but I would think that it would be plenty strong. I remember checking that out when I used it.
I'm not sure I would lead solo on a Cinch because of the small contact area as was previously stated. I think only a Soloist or Silent Partner distribute the stress on the rope over an adequate area.
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climbingaggie03
Jun 1, 2006, 2:11 PM
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I use a short piece of webbing tied in a loop with a water knot instead of a carabiner or quick link. It can't cross load, and it's a tied runner so it's plenty strong. The main disadvantage is the inconvenience of tying and untying the webbing.
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billcoe_
Jun 1, 2006, 5:36 PM
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In reply to: I attach my soloist to my belay loop with 7mm cord. I'm not familiar with the cinch. It might be too sharp or something. The soloist has a huge radius. I don't see why a quicklink wouldn't work. You might want to tighten it with a wrench and tape it.
Per the Soloist instructions, I use rope to connect directly to my harness belay loop as well. (9mm rope fits and is much stronger than your 7mm). I am uncomfortable with the rope to webbing connection.
I've also used it without the chest harness they recommend and find it works fine for TR with that config.
I've only used a Cinch a couple of times, and don't remember if theres room for 2 Krabs (there is on the silent partner) but Trango makes the lightest lockers out there. How about using 2 of them, oppposed and reversed?
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sixleggedinsect
Jun 1, 2006, 5:52 PM
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thanks for the many helpful responses.
In reply to: I've only used a Cinch a couple of times, and don't remember if theres room for 2 Krabs (there is on the silent partner) but Trango makes the lightest lockers out there. How about using 2 of them, oppposed and reversed?
unfortunately, the cinch has room for only one normal carabiner. if i drilled it out a couple mm, it would fit two superfly lockers, but it's more project than i want this week.
as for tying it on with webbing or rope, i had thouht of that, but for multipitch that is enough tie/untie hassle to turn me off. on the other hand, for single pitch, it seems like a great idea which i will use.
In reply to: I'm not sure I would lead solo on a Cinch because of the small contact area as was previously stated. I think only a Soloist or Silent Partner distribute the stress on the rope over an adequate area.
hm. not sure i understand this. are you saying the small contact area will damage the rope? i dont foresee any problems with this, for many reasons. could you explain?
In reply to: I attach my soloist to my belay loop with 7mm cord. I'm not familiar with the cinch. It might be too sharp or something. The soloist has a huge radius. I don't see why a quicklink wouldn't work. You might want to tighten it with a wrench and tape it.
the cinch has an attachment point radius smaller than any biner i've used, so i would feel a little iffy with a cord as thin as 7mm. webbing or rope i'd feel better about.
i like the quicklink idea, and am pleased the thread isn't inundated with 'i broke another 3/8" quicklink this weekend' stories. i dont think the wrench and tape would be necessary, seems the screw lock is as secure as a screw gate biner. in fact, i'd call it more secure, since it takes a lot more turns to open and close a link than a screwgate.
In reply to: I'm not sure how you would set up a cinch for rope soloing, but if you're main concern is to prevent cross-loading, there might be another option available. Notably, if there is any kind of upper loop-hole or attachment on the top of the cinch, you can tie a piece of webbing through that, make a big loop, and put it over your head. That way when you stand up, you will naturally pull the cinch upright.
the cinch does indeed have a convenient attachment hole to force it upright, which i will be using to keep it oriented while climbing. however, i admit i dont see how that would stop the cinch attachment biner from getting crossloaded. the only way it would guarantee that is if it was under constant tension from above, and that might not be too comfortable/realistic.
thanks again, folks
anthony
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sittingduck
Jun 1, 2006, 7:30 PM
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Maybe make a second belay loop inside the original one that ties the biner/quicklink tight to the hip belt? Clip both belay loops for redundancy.
Picasso picture here:
http://www.home.no/sittingduck/loop2.gif
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toeknee
Jun 3, 2006, 1:17 PM
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In reply to: Quicklinks are the way to go. as ther is much less issue with coloading....be sure to take a real quicklinks and not hardware-shop crap....In europe, suitable links are are certified CE
So true. CE-rated quicklinks are standard fare in vertical caving systems. They often get twisted and rotated due to the constricted nature of many cave pits and climbs. A biner would be weaker due to crossloading. Definitely spend the extra few dollars for the one CE-rated quicklink that you need -- it isn't something you're going to leave for a bail anchor.
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coolklimber
Jun 3, 2006, 4:37 PM
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Don't be cheap, get a carabiner.
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naitch
Jun 3, 2006, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: thanks for the many helpful responses. In reply to: I'm not sure I would lead solo on a Cinch because of the small contact area as was previously stated. I think only a Soloist or Silent Partner distribute the stress on the rope over an adequate area. hm. not sure i understand this. are you saying the small contact area will damage the rope? i dont foresee any problems with this, for many reasons. could you explain?
Yes, that's what I mean. The actual contact area of the cinch on the rope when it grabs is a very small area. This is based on my memory and I could be wrong. I know that it is small enough on the Grigri and Ushba ascender (and similar Yates Rocker) that I would not lead with these devices. I would not be willing to trusti my life to the Cinch and the potential of a significant length whipper. The Soloist and Silent Partner are specifically made for lead soloing and distribute the force on the rope over a larger area. I wouldn't however, have any probelm using the Cinch for top rope soloing, just not lead climbing - but to each his own.
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kubi
Jun 3, 2006, 5:38 PM
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you do realize that people use the cinch to belay lead climbers, right?
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sixleggedinsect
Jun 8, 2006, 1:26 AM
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In reply to: Don't be cheap, get a carabiner.
what? did you even read the thread?
In reply to: The actual contact area of the cinch on the rope when it grabs is a very small area. This is based on my memory and I could be wrong. I know that it is small enough on the Grigri and Ushba ascender (and similar Yates Rocker) that I would not lead with these devices. I would not be willing to trusti my life to the Cinch and the potential of a significant length whipper.
well, i think kubi summed up my thoguhts. i thought there was a possibility that was what you meant.
basically, to reiterate kubi's point: i trust the cinch completely to catch a big fall without damaging the rope. first off, i do not believe the contact area is small. after you posted, i even went back and checked just to make sure i wasnt missing anything exciting.
second, even if i did think the contact area was small, clearly its big enough to be safe becuase the dang thing was designed as a belay device. the trango instruction manual does not have a disclaimer stating that it is unsafe to use for catching 'significant length whippers'.
finally, the trango instruction manual *does* say that in the case of a really harsh fall, the device will let rope slip until the forces come down. this would be a great feature for a soloing device, and confirms that the device will let rope slip instead of cutting it like some of the toproping solo devices (like the ushba, if i recall correctly) will in a harsh lead fall.
let me know if im missing something, but honestly- my only qualms about using the cinch as the engine for a rope solo setup is that it might not be good for inverted falls, but i may be able to toy my way aroudn that one too. in a couple weeks ill be climbing again and ill be sure to post my 'research'.
thanks folks,
anthony
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sixleggedinsect
Jun 8, 2006, 1:34 AM
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In reply to: Maybe make a second belay loop inside the original one that ties the biner/quicklink tight to the hip belt? Clip both belay loops for redundancy.
i like this idea, and the way you have it set up as pictured.
keeping the cinch as close as possible to the tie in point is a good thing. if i fell, most of hte weight would be caught on my swami, and less on the leg loops than normal, but this doesnt bother me. still safe, and how often am i going to rope solo a route i'd actually fall on?
thanks.
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fobnicat
Jun 8, 2006, 2:08 AM
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not sure if anyone else has said it yet, but if you are planning to climb on something with only a 1000 - 2000lb breaking strength.. then chances are you will fall... I work ropes courses.. Ever used a break away? 900 lbs and it will break away.. I weigh in about 135 lbs and I have had them give (900 lbs of force) from a 2 foot fall.. Do as you will, just thought I needed to get that info out as soon as possible..
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sixleggedinsect
Jun 8, 2006, 3:42 AM
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In reply to: not sure if anyone else has said it yet, but if you are planning to climb on something with only a 1000 - 2000lb breaking strength.. then chances are you will fall... I work ropes courses.. Ever used a break away? 900 lbs and it will break away.. I weigh in about 135 lbs and I have had them give (900 lbs of force) from a 2 foot fall.. Do as you will, just thought I needed to get that info out as soon as possible..
im not sure what a 'break away' is. what does it do and how is it rated?
anyways, the quicklinks do not have a 2000 lb breaking strength. they have a *safe working load* rating with a high safety factor. the cheap hardware quicklinks generally have a 2200 lbs SWF for a 3/8" link. if all goes according to plan, the actual breaking strength will be many times the working load. how many more times depends on manufacturer. i've seen it generally range from 3:1 to 10:1.
for an example, try
http://www.wichard-usa.com/ClimbingSafety/maillon%5Frapide/index.htm
the stainless 3/8" link is rated to over 3k lbs SWF, and a hefty 15,430 lbs breaking load. thats over 68 kN.
(pause to think deep thoughts about 68 kN)
of course, they tend not to be held to as rigorous standards as carabiners, but on paper they look pretty good, but the real world sometimes does funny things.
and hence my original question: anyone seen one break in actual use? in any application whatsoever?
so far, no posts, but that really doesnt mean much.
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fobnicat
Jun 9, 2006, 12:15 AM
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I have never seen one break, but that is not to say they dont.. Why be the one that finally sees it... That might be why no one has seen it, all the ones that did see it, are unable to tell youa bout it now...
As for a break away, you might know it as a absorber on a set of safers (lobster claws)... If you still dont know what i am talking about, a break away is a bundle of 6 foot of 2 inch webbing with mild stitching that will break away when 900lbs of force is applied...It is made to absorb the shock of a hard fall when not on a rope..... Everything on a ropes course requires a 5000lb breaking strength minimum.. which means 1 inch webbing is out.. And most ropes courses dont allow the types of falls that we climbers take on a regular day of climbing.. Just keep it all in mind when you are thinking of buying those rapid links..
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sixleggedinsect
Jun 9, 2006, 12:39 AM
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In reply to: I have never seen one break, but that is not to say they dont.. Why be the one that finally sees it... That might be why no one has seen it, all the ones that did see it, are unable to tell youa bout it now...
dude, what exactly are you suggesting, then? something safer than a quicklink? like a carabiner?
the whole reason i am looking at quicklinks is because i feel that they are SAFER than carabiners.
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fobnicat
Jun 9, 2006, 1:08 AM
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i am saying stick to something that is MEANT to be climbed on directly... If you get a rapid link that is meant for climbing, then i am sure that it will hold. But if the breaking strength is only 1 -2 thousand lbs.. happy funeral, because that shit WILL eventually break... dont like a steel biner? use an aluminum screwlock... Its lighter, and you can get then in a different shape to maybe position the rope in a different way..
You asked if they ever break... you said they only have a 1 to 2 thousand lb breaking strength, I have never seen one break because when I use rapid links, i use them in a stationary place where they dont take huge falls on... They have steady weight on it.. When you fall, the force you generate is exponetially relative to you body weight..
do what you want to do, I am just letting you know of issues that came up when I read your post.. Plus a rapid link isnt very much lighter than a steel biner...
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sittingduck
Jun 9, 2006, 1:17 AM
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If you manage to get a single strand of webbing through the hole in the cinch together with the quicklink you maybe could tie a backup around your swami or belay loop?
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sixleggedinsect
Jun 9, 2006, 2:23 AM
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In reply to: i am saying stick to something that is MEANT to be climbed on directly... If you get a rapid link that is meant for climbing, then i am sure that it will hold. But if the breaking strength is only 1 -2 thousand lbs.. happy funeral, because that s--- WILL eventually break...
and you keep confusing safe working load with breaking strength, but whatever.
In reply to: dont like a steel biner? use an aluminum screwlock... Its lighter, and you can get then in a different shape to maybe position the rope in a different way..
an aluminum screwlock is no good to me for the reasons i cited earlier in the thread. f'goodness sakes..
its fine if you think a standard locker is safe enough (its not for me, but im a pansy). but don't make it out like it's just as safe as a steel biner or beefy name brand quicklink.
In reply to: If you manage to get a single strand of webbing through the hole in the cinch together with the quicklink you maybe could tie a backup around your swami or belay loop?
while im generally a big fan of redundancy, that would defeat the purpose of using the quicklink in the first place- the ability to get it on and off relatively quickly compared to retying a piece of webbing/cord.
thanks, folks.
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gunkiemike
Jun 9, 2006, 2:46 AM
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In reply to: When you fall, the force you generate is exponetially relative to you body weight..
Exponential?
So that F = mA stuff they teach at the university is wrong?
Ya better let them know before someone gets hurt.
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sittingduck
Jun 9, 2006, 2:07 PM
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[quote=sixleggedinsect]while im generally a big fan of redundancy, that would defeat the purpose of using the quicklink in the first place- the ability to get it on and off relatively quickly compared to retying a piece of webbing/cord.
This might be faster (see picture) than tying and untying the sling but I think the backup must be rigged "permanently", redundant but maybe not practical for your use?
http://www.home.no/...gduck/solobackup.gif
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