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saber199
Jun 9, 2006, 6:15 AM
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Allright I made a search and I couldn't find anything. I need some advice on the most effective way to transition the belay from climber to climber at a multi pich belay station. I'd appreciate any help you guys could offer. Thanks.
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theirishman
Jun 9, 2006, 7:04 AM
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so what you do is youve lead the first pitch, made your bomber 3point anchor and you top belayed him to you(assuming you know that) Then he takes the cordallete and clips his daisy or clovehit(wich i prefer) into the top 3 string so hes loading all THREE POINT AND DOESNT BLOW ONE OUT AND GET YOU GUYS KILLED!!!! sorry ive seen that and it scarred me(not the death part, but the blowing) then you would give him the gear and he would go up and start climb. But if he was to belay you next, he would stay there and give you a normal lead belay, then you would get to the next anchor build anchor and all that jazz get him on belay, then hed clean that anchor and start climbin and cleaning! enjoy and stay safe
~some irish looking guy
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scuclimber
Jun 9, 2006, 7:59 AM
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While you're belaying, coil the rope over your connection to the anchor. Toss loops over either side of it while you're taking in slack. That way when your second gets to you the rop is nice and (hopefully) un-clusterfucked. Then if you're leading again flip the rope over and hang it over your partner's anchor connection, or if he/she is leading, just belay as is. Perhaps somebody else might explain this more clearly than I.
Colin
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granite_grrl
Jun 13, 2006, 11:12 PM
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The leader belaying from the top can remove any remaining gear from their harness and clip it to an anchor leg in some sort of order.
I find if the leader likes to remove biners and the like not in use from cams and draws then it takes that much longer to reassemble everything at the belay.
If the second can be more organized when removing gear, seperate gear from slings, putting cams on one loop of the harness, etc...perhaps to the point that if their leading next they're already have racked then you're ahead of the game. BTW - I hate when people rack multiple cams to one biner, makes being an organized second much more difficult.
When you've been climbing with someone for a while you know everyone is on the same page and your change overs will go much quicker.
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iceisnice
Jun 15, 2006, 4:11 PM
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the only thing i would add is...practice, practice, practice. all this info is great, but it means nothing if not practiced. most people don't make the actual effort to practice when they are out climbing. when you go out cragging, focus on one thing you want to do for the day and do it over and over. a less intimidating way to practice speeding up belay change overs is to climb a single pitch climb and when you get to the top belay your partner up as if you were doing another pitch.
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ddriver
Jun 15, 2006, 8:54 PM
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Its hard to tell from your question if you're swapping leads or not at the belay. When I first read it I assumed yes, but I'm not so sure now.
If you are swapping leads, the process is simple and relatively fast. I use typical American techniques with a re-directed belay point and a belay from my harness. In that case you have a ready top-rope point off the re-direct for your second. I tie the second off at my belay device using an overhand or 8 so we both have our hands free to deal with gear, water, clothes, whatever. Build the belay with these activities in mind, so you have a comfortable spot and the second will when they arrive. The fewer distractions, the quicker you'll be.
If you're guiding someone or leading in blocks you have to have a different perspective when you build the belay. There are more variables as well, i.e. are you using single or double rope technique, do you build your belay using the rope(s) or a cordelette, etc. You have to keep in mind that you need to get the second into the belay in essentially a duplication of your method of attachment, and you have to be able to rapidly escape. If you use a cordelette or slings its straightforward because you probably have a single power point to clip into. If you belay using your rope(s), as I do, the process is a bit more complicated. Minimize the number of rope connection points (its normally easy to limit that to 2) when you build the belay. When the second arrives, if you haven't already, use free biners to clip into the belay at the exact points you have clipped in, and direct them where to tie in. You put the biners in or at least show them because you designed the belay with that in mind. Don't make them look or figure your system out. You can use an extra layer of biners, ala wall style, if you want to clean up the tie in points, but that's normally not necessary. Make sure they tie in under you so you don't get your ropes crossed. Get them into the belay, deal with your gear, etc., flip the rope so you're back on top, have them put you on belay, and take off.
Sorting gear is where most people loose time, that and not realizing the importance of moving with purpose. A gear sling is generally faster than harness racking. Its important that you develop a rhythym with your partner in exchanging gear. I always give the rack to the new leader as soon as they are secure so they can prepare their own rack. Hand them gear at a rate they are comfortable with, say 1 to 3 pieces at a time, so they are quick and don't drop anything. Temporarily rack on the belay to speed the process if they're busy doing something else, always be doing something. Clip draws to their harness while they're working the rack. Don't worry about making the rack pretty, i.e. the order of the gear, it normally won't matter a bit. Once you extend tripled slings, leave them that way with a single biner on each and shoulder them. They're long for a reason.
When I'm following and cleaning gear I place it on my harness gate out with the piece on the outside of the draw, so that I can remove the gear independently of the draw. This speeds the process, especially when cleaning wires.
Beginners tend to loose tons of time at the belay because they fiddle with so much stuff and do unproductive actions. If one of you is standing there doing nothing there's a problem, or you've got nowhere to go. You should normally be able to keep your exchanges to 60 seconds if you're swapping leads.
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mhabicht
Jun 15, 2006, 10:24 PM
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Two reversos
Lead then belay 2nd up with autoblocking reverso. Make sure you flake rope/lap coil it to keep it neat. Then when 2nd arrives swap gear and then have her give you HER reverso. Put her on belay with the 2nds reverso and have the second take apart the autoblocking reverso. She then keeps it with her for the next pitch. No one is ever off belay and the 2nd never has to tie in, just back up the autoblocked reverso with a knot on the break hand side. This is VERY fast and smooth- no looking for a place to tie the second in, just leave her on the autoblock mode until she leads off.
HIJACK! But relevant-
OK- question for all of you GEAR SLING users.... please explain how it is faster to use a gear sling?!?!?!
Imagine I have a sling- I climb and use up 1/2 of my rack on the pitch and some more in the anchor. 2nd comes up and cleans and put 1/2 of rack onto their sling plus the stuff from the lower anchor. Now about 1/2 of rack is on the leaders sling and 1/2 on seconds sling. We now have to swap slings?!?! That's useless- you have to swap gear anyway!?!?! How is this "much" faster than just racking on a harness?
Ok- maybe the leader used every single piece of gear on that hard pitch and now all he has to do is get the sling from the second and keep climbing.... oops... actually since we are swapping leads the second just keeps it all anyway and climbs on through. SO the sling was useless. Hmmm.... ok the leader is guiding and uses every piece of gear and then just has to take back the sling. OK then it's faster. But is it NOT faster between two equal climbers or on easy ground where you are only using bits and parts of a rack per pitch.
One more thing.... if you have to use a sling because you have so much crap that it is pulling your pants off you are either climbing a big wall OR carrying way too much crap. Trim down, look at the pitch ahead, carry less, give your 2nd the wide gear until you need it. Carry more nuts and actually use them instead of carrying 3 sets of cams. Etc etc...
Just a thought....
-m
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yetanotherdave
Jun 15, 2006, 10:58 PM
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In reply to: OK- question for all of you GEAR SLING users.... please explain how it is faster to use a gear sling?!?!?!
common scenario: easy ground, the leader only placed a few pieces. Second climbs to station, tethers in, grabs the leader's gear sling. Second is now leader. New second opens a granola bar for nibbling while belaying, new leader organizes the pieces they cleaned onto the sling. Leader untethers and leaves. < 30 seconds, and the only time there's any chance of dropping gear it's a sling that's easy for both people to have a hand on.
It's easy ground where efficient changeovers are the most crucial, since on harder terrain you may need a minute's rest at the station anyway.
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ddriver
Jun 16, 2006, 3:58 PM
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Sling or no sling is more a matter of personal preference and route characteristics than speed. To me, its easier to rack on a sling that's right in front of my face than to rack gear and draws on four different gear loops on my harness. But its mostly sixes. The drawback to harness racking is when you climb easier pitches where you only place 4 or 5 pieces. Then you're moving a lot of gear and that becomes tedious.
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ddriver
Jun 16, 2006, 4:13 PM
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In reply to: Two reversos Lead then belay 2nd up with autoblocking reverso. Make sure you flake rope/lap coil it to keep it neat. Then when 2nd arrives swap gear and then have her give you HER reverso. Put her on belay with the 2nds reverso and have the second take apart the autoblocking reverso. She then keeps it with her for the next pitch. No one is ever off belay and the 2nd never has to tie in, just back up the autoblocked reverso with a knot on the break hand side. This is VERY fast and smooth- no looking for a place to tie the second in, just leave her on the autoblock mode until she leads off. -m
For switching leads at the belay (which you just described), I find it hard to see how that is faster than this:
"I use typical American techniques with a re-directed belay point and a belay from my harness. In that case you have a ready top-rope point off the re-direct for your second. I tie the second off at my belay device using an overhand or 8 so we both have our hands free to deal with gear, water, clothes, whatever. "
All I've done is put an overhand to back up my belay plate and we're both hands free at the belay. The second is in the lead position immediately. For some reason you're exchanging belay devices and you're also using a backup knot.
My description for the second tieing into the belay is for guiding or leading in blocks, where the second becomes the belayer, not the leader. Read again.
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csproul
Jun 16, 2006, 4:31 PM
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Now girls...you're both pretty...I think both methods have merit, it's just that while using a autoblocking device to belay the second, it can be easier to just switch devices as mchabicht wrote. Although I am not sure that the backup knot is necessary w/ the reverso; if not being backed up was good enough to belay with it should be good enough to merely switch out the devices. Some people really like to belay the second in an autoblocker. If you are not using an autoblocking device, then I would go with something like ddriver's method.
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cchildre
Jun 16, 2006, 5:01 PM
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For the autoblock methods. I just want to point out that you really need to have a bomber anchor. If one is at a good stance but the anchor is less than optimal, and questionable in any reguard, then redirecting throught the anchor and belaying off the harness is a safer method.
I was climbing in a team of three. A buddy leads the first pitch and tosses together an anchor using the underside of a large boulder and brought up two seconds together. This was on a gigantic ledge with a great stance. Dissassembling the anchor, I realized that the large boulder actually rocked easily back and forth, had either of us weighted the rope, the anchor would have failed and one or both of us would be dead. If a redirect off the harness had been used, at least the belayer would have been in place to perhaps prevent a death plunge. No more of that monkey business.
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csproul
Jun 16, 2006, 5:07 PM
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I'll take that one step further...if the belay is not bomber, not only should you not be using an autoblock, but I would not redirect but instead belay directly off your harness (as long as you have a good stance). And make sure your second knows the situation before climbing if at all possible. I have had a really crappy anchor fail with a redirect (it's amazing I lived through my first years of climbing!) and I had a good stance; the slack generated from the redirect was easily enough to pull me off the belay. Luckily the last piece I had from leading up caught both of us. In your situation though, he really should have been able to recognize that the boulder was wobbling.
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aikibujin
Jun 16, 2006, 5:16 PM
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In reply to: If one is at a good stance but the anchor is less than optimal, and questionable in any reguard, then redirecting throught the anchor and belaying off the harness is a safer method.
Redirecting through the anchor actually puts more force on the anchor than belaying directly off the anchor.
In that scenario (good stance with questionable anchor), I would belay directly off my harness. With good stances, I have been able to hold falling seconds while putting minimum extra force on the anchor. It is, however, very uncomfortable if your second wants to hangdog.
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mhabicht
Jun 16, 2006, 6:27 PM
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I agree that the "american" method may be faster at the change over but the autoblocker is faster to climb with in general IMHO. You can take your hand off and flake rope, eat a snack, drink a beer... These things will make the whole pitch faster- not just the change over. Plus going through a re-direct is a pain in the butt if you want to pull up rope quickly- lots more friction. AND- I can escape the belay in about zero seconds since I was never part of it. Oh oh- I can give myself 3 feet of slack and look over the edge without being pulled back and forth every time my second takes. Oh- I can take pictures. Hmm... I can also organize the rack.
Personally I think rope management and stuck gear are the real speed killers- both of these things can be helped by using an autoblock device. Hands free allows better rope care and hands free while your 2nd yanks on a nut allows the leader time to move around, rerack, eat, etc...
Anyway- your method is perfectly fine too and I have used it many times but lately all I do is autoblock because I can take care of myself and the rope so much better at the belay with moments of hands free.
I dont need a knot to back up the autoblock- but my wife likes it and it takes about 3 seconds to tie so I do it.
Other tips at the change over-
DRINK
Take off jacket- yes you WILL get hot mid pitch so plan ahead
only take gear you need
turn around and admire the view! That was the whole point was it not?
laugh
double check everything again! It can be hard to see the belay loop when it is covered in coils of rope. So look!!
Rope into the device? locked biner? Rope goes from harness to belayer? no knots, cracks or tree roots trying to grab the flaked rope?
CLIMB ON!
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gomz
Jun 18, 2006, 5:20 PM
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Assuming you know how to build solid anchors, here is a I use when swapping leads.
1)Climb pitch, build anchor
2)Using reverso or other auto lock device belay up second
3)While belaying second rack gear on shoulder length sling at belay (so they can grab whatever gear they want for the next pitch)
4)When second gets to belay they weight device and you backup the brake end into power point of anchor
5)after second is racked you put them on belay using their belay device unclip reverso from anchor unclip b/u
6)new leader takes reverso and their off on the next pitch
This method is safe and can be very quick but does require practice.
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vegastradguy
Jun 18, 2006, 5:45 PM
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In reply to: I agree that the "american" method may be faster at the change over but the autoblocker is faster to climb with in general IMHO.
meh, i dont really think so. i used to use the autoblock all of the time, but as i've climbed longer i use it less and less. the only way it really works is if the anchor is situated in a way that the device hangs appropriately at or above waist level. this doesnt always happen....in fact, it happens much less often than i would like it to.
the other problem with the autoblocker is the lowering aspect. if i think the second is going to fall or have trouble may need to be lowered (even a little), then i belay off my harness (usually redirected).
my belay changeover works like this:
second arrives, i tie a BFK behind my belay device to secure them.
hand gear over.
optional on large ledge and if time alots: have a snack.
untie BFK, and they're gone.
i drink my water just after i secure myself at anchor before i bring them up and just after they call down off belay before i climb up to them.
the goal is to keep the changeovers to a minimum amount of time. on a fast and light route, changeovers can take about 15-20 seconds, and on a big and serious route than may take up to a minute depending on how much gear has to change hands.
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flamer
Jun 19, 2006, 6:17 AM
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In reply to: [ i tie a BFK behind my belay device to secure them.
Totally stole the BFK from me...maybe not the technique but the abbreviation....
This thread is cracking me up!! You guys really need figure somethings out!
josh
PS..hey Jon!! Hope all is well!!
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ddriver
Jun 19, 2006, 1:59 PM
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In reply to: This thread is cracking me up!! You guys really need figure somethings out!
Yeah, well you're cracking me up.
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ddriver
Jun 19, 2006, 2:32 PM
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In reply to: Redirecting through the anchor actually puts more force on the anchor than belaying directly off the anchor.
Simple physics (resolution of forces, etc.) supports this statement but it doesn't take into count the effect body mass can have in absorbing forces in a dynamic way, ala rope stretch.
mhabicht didn't specifically say he belaying directly off the anchor, though I should have suspected as much. I have watched enough Euro teams move fast so I know their methods are speed based and work well. You have good points about your freedom of movement, etc., using the autoblock. You can do all those things using the American method but it's a little more work. Do you tie into the belay using the rope or slings? I've seen a number of Euro guides simply clip in to the belay using a quickdraw.
My question for you guys who use autoblock methods directly off the belay is how you belay the leader. Are you switching reversos so that you belay the leader off your harness? If not, how do you deal with upward forces generated by a leader fall, or lateral ones for that matter. It seems to complicate belay construction having to compensate for more load possibilities.
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yetanotherdave
Jun 19, 2006, 3:31 PM
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I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the other option for autoblocking belays: gri-gri
I agree with the above poster who mentioned the huge time-savings if the belayer can take the time to eat/drink/organize/... while bringing the second up. The gri gives you the easy one-handed belay option, so you can take care of other stuff while not reeling in rope.
The gri is also awesome when simul-climbing - the second can adjust the amount of rope between climbers with the gri, which keeps them from either having to stop when the leader is on slower ground or slowing the leader up when they're cleaning gear.
If using a gri I still tie a BFK as a backup during exchanges, but since it doesn't really get weighted it's easy to clear it when the new leader leaves...
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mdavid01
Jun 19, 2006, 4:06 PM
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I found that three pieces of equipment greatly helped us move fast through belay stations this year.
1. ATC Guide - being able to grab water while belaying second and third.
2. Metolius pass - quick plug in and out to power point on belay station. With three of us on each station these made for MUCH more comfortable and organized efforts.
3. Trango equilizer - pre built belay stations are the way to go. Pop some lockers on the trango and clip clip clip, off belay. Keeping two pre rigged REALLY kept belay times down to a minimum.
The other stars of my trip were my trad masters which hike surprisingly well and iomega link cams. Those damn things went in everywhere and made my heart happier many many times.
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scrapedape
Jun 19, 2006, 5:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Redirecting through the anchor actually puts more force on the anchor than belaying directly off the anchor. Simple physics (resolution of forces, etc.) supports this statement but it doesn't take into count the effect body mass can have in absorbing forces in a dynamic way, ala rope stretch.
What effect is that?
In reply to: My question for you guys who use autoblock methods directly off the belay is how you belay the leader. Are you switching reversos so that you belay the leader off your harness? If not, how do you deal with upward forces generated by a leader fall, or lateral ones for that matter. It seems to complicate belay construction having to compensate for more load possibilities.
I'm not sure about a Reverso, but with my B52, I use my belay biner as my blocking biner. When it's time for the second to lead the next pitch, I can take the belay device off the anchor and clip the belay biner to my harness - it's already correctly threaded. Just clip the brake strand / autoblock backup into the anchor before doing this.
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vegastradguy
Jun 20, 2006, 4:12 AM
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wow, this thread has gotten so involved i cant keep up.
if changeovers were as involved as this thread, it would explain the glacial pace of some climbers out there!
oh, and i'll give credit for the abbreviation to josh, although i had started using the knot before...
hope colorado is treating you well, man!
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deltav
Jun 20, 2006, 4:38 AM
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If it hasn't been said enough, practice, and with someone who knows what they are doing. Getting info off of a website is not all that sufficient when it comes to your life ( or your buddy's)
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