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majid_sabet
Jun 8, 2006, 5:55 AM
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http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/181010/
BRENDA MANOOKIN / Daily Herald A 25 year old man from Sandy is attended to after being life flighted from Scout Falls to the Timponeeke trail head. The man, along with his friend were repelling behind the falls when the rope became tangled. When the victim attempted to untangle the rope, he fell 20-30 ft. into the water. He broke both legs and sustained injuries to his shoulders and and possibly his head. "He is in poor condition", Lutenant Darren Gilbert states. The other man ran down the four mile trail and called 911 from Mutual Dell, but there was an hour and a half time delay from the fall to the rescue. The victim was hoisted out and life flighted to LDS Hospital. Apline Loop, Utah, Friday, June 2, 2006
================================
Does any one wants to guess what happend here ?
MS
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overlord
Jun 8, 2006, 6:15 AM
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stupid canyoneer let go of the break end?
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mrcoolshoes1105
Jun 8, 2006, 11:38 AM
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a couple coils in the rope got backed up against the ATC? ...makes me want to never rap without a prussik again.
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reg
Jun 8, 2006, 1:11 PM
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In reply to: stupid canyoneer let go of the brake end?
probably - but no need for name callin.
In reply to: makes me want to never rap without a prussik again.
i agree - this is very important to me - i have a little 40' grag near home - that's the only place i don't extend the device and use a prussic.
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dirtineye
Jun 8, 2006, 1:13 PM
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It is likely that a rappell backup would stop this sort of injury, but without more details, you can't really say that yet.
There are sure a lot of serious rappel accidents here lately.
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mrcoolshoes1105
Jun 8, 2006, 2:01 PM
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In reply to: that's the only place i don't extend the device and use a prussic
what is your reasoning for extending the device? i have always just kept it clipped normally with a biner to my belay loop...although the only prussiks i have are a little too short, and i was thinking of extending my backup with a sling.
a penny for your thoughts?
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reg
Jun 8, 2006, 2:20 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: that's the only place i don't extend the device and use a prussic what is your reasoning for extending the device? i have always just kept it clipped normally with a biner to my belay loop...although the only prussiks i have are a little too short, and i was thinking of extending my backup with a sling. a penny for your thoughts?
with the device at shoulder height or so (2'runner) you can apply more braking power easier then havin it close in - try it sometime - the angle of brake side rope allows this - also your backup is more in front of you rather then down and beside - things are easier to manage - i often rap with my pack hanging from a 4' runner on the big locker - it's much more comfortable, less clutter on the harness so easier to inspect your setup. ya do have to be careful of long hair on windy days
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mrcoolshoes1105
Jun 8, 2006, 3:10 PM
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yeah thats pretty clutch...so you just girth hitch a 2' to your harness, clip the ATC into that, then run your backup prussik from a leg loop?
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aikibujin
Jun 8, 2006, 3:37 PM
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In reply to: yeah thats pretty clutch...so you just girth hitch a 2' to your harness, clip the ATC into that, then run your backup prussik from a leg loop?
Another good reason to extend the belay device is so that you can clip the below-the-brake-hand backup into the belay loop. That way if you mess up your rappel setup, for example if you only pushed the rope through the belay device without clipping them, you'll end up hanging on your belay loop when the rope pops out of the belay device, instead of hanging upside down on your leg loop.
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csgambill
Jun 8, 2006, 4:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: that's the only place i don't extend the device and use a prussic what is your reasoning for extending the device? i have always just kept it clipped normally with a biner to my belay loop...although the only prussiks i have are a little too short, and i was thinking of extending my backup with a sling. a penny for your thoughts?
The only real reason to extend your belay device with a sling while using a back up such as an autoblock while rappelling is to prevent the back-up from getting pulled into your belay device.
Oh, and for those of you out there who lack proper command of the English language...
From Dictionary.com:
Rappelling - descent of a vertical surface, as a cliff or wall, by sliding down a belayed rope that is passed under one thigh and over the opposite shoulder or through a device that provides friction, typically while facing the surface and performing a series of short backward leaps to control the descent.
Repelling - 1. To ward off or keep away; drive back: repel insects.
2. To offer resistance to; fight against: repel an invasion.
3. To refuse to accept; reject: a company that was trying to repel a hostile takeover.
4. To turn away from; spurn.
5. To cause aversion or distaste in: Your rudeness repels everyone. See Synonyms at disgust. See Usage Note at repulse.
6. To be resistant to; be incapable of absorbing or mixing with: Oil repels water.
7. Physics. To present an opposing force to; push back or away by a force: Electric charges of the same sign repel one another
Rapelling - no entry found.
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reg
Jun 8, 2006, 4:31 PM
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In reply to: yeah thats pretty clutch...so you just girth hitch a 2' to your harness, clip the ATC into that, then run your backup prussik from a leg loop?
that's what i do - but i do like this idea:In reply to: Another good reason to extend the belay device is so that you can clip the below-the-brake-hand backup into the belay loop.
but i do not have a belay loop on my BD bod (time for a new harness)!
nervous nelly that i am i have started to use two 2' runners. both on my harness captureing the swami & leg loop crossover plus the back up off the leg loop. if i had a belay loop i would put one on the belay loop (for the device) and one to capture the swami/leg loop crossover combo for the back up. also a prussic has been talked about as not being the best (v.s. auto block) cause it may be hard to release if shock loaded. i've never had any trouble and i sometimes need to clear ropes on decent so i'm weighting the prussic doing this.
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microbarn
Jun 8, 2006, 5:47 PM
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In reply to: The only real reason to extend your belay device with a sling while using a back up such as an autoblock while rappelling is to prevent the back-up from getting pulled into your belay device.
I find there are a lot more reasons, but to each their own.
In reply to: yeah thats pretty clutch...so you just girth hitch a 2' to your harness, clip the ATC into that, then run your backup prussik from a leg loop?
I use a standard length sling, but I tie a figure 8 or 9 to get it closer. After I sit in my harness it stretches away from you. It really sucks to try and do anything with the device when it gets too far out from you.
Because I have a girthed standard sling and knots in it, I only bother setting it up with multiple raps. One rapped pitch isn't worth the effort.
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majid_sabet
Jun 8, 2006, 8:02 PM
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The news reported as "repelling" but
What is life flighted ? or Flighted ?
www.heraldextra.com/content/view/181010/
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pinktricam
Jun 8, 2006, 8:36 PM
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In reply to: The news reported as "repelling" but What is life flighted ? or Flighted ? www.heraldextra.com/content/view/181010/ |
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pinktricam
Jun 8, 2006, 8:41 PM
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In reply to: The news reported as "repelling" but What is life flighted ? or Flighted ? www.heraldextra.com/content/view/181010/ |
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olderic
Jun 8, 2006, 9:26 PM
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OK - how about the "break" end that Overlord was concerned about letting go of? I think holding onto an end with a name like that is just asking for trouble - probably a good idea to let go of it as soon as possible....
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jt512
Jun 8, 2006, 9:37 PM
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In reply to: http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/181010/ BRENDA MANOOKIN / Daily Herald A 25 year old man from Sandy is attended to after being life flighted from Scout Falls to the Timponeeke trail head. The man, along with his friend were repelling behind the falls when the rope became tangled. When the victim attempted to untangle the rope, he fell 20-30 ft. into the water. He broke both legs and sustained injuries to his shoulders and and possibly his head. "He is in poor condition", Lutenant Darren Gilbert states. The other man ran down the four mile trail and called 911 from Mutual Dell, but there was an hour and a half time delay from the fall to the rescue. The victim was hoisted out and life flighted to LDS Hospital. Apline Loop, Utah, Friday, June 2, 2006 ================================ Does any one wants to guess what happend here ?
My guess is that he got the tangles out.
Jay
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bluenose
Jun 10, 2006, 1:48 PM
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In reply to: Another good reason to extend the belay device is so that you can clip the below-the-brake-hand backup into the belay loop.
The only "below-the-brake-hand backup" that I can think of is a firemen's belay or a knot in the climbing rope...and you don't have to clip those in. Clipping your backup below the ATC (or whatever device) to the belay loop would put three biners, sling, rope, backup knot/device all tight together...very hard to manage well.
In reply to: That way if you mess up your rappel setup, for example if you only pushed the rope through the belay device without clipping them, you'll end up hanging on your belay loop when the rope pops out of the belay device, instead of hanging upside down on your leg loop.
If you messed up your setup THAT way, I'd be seriously concerned about your safety in a whole myriad of other ways. If you are concerned about that kind of failure, extend your backup to above the device. The leg loop clip-in is only to backup your brake hand, not your rappel device.
Jeff.
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dirtineye
Jun 10, 2006, 2:34 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Another good reason to extend the belay device is so that you can clip the below-the-brake-hand backup into the belay loop. The only "below-the-brake-hand backup" that I can think of is a firemen's belay or a knot in the climbing rope...and you don't have to clip those in. Clipping your backup below the ATC (or whatever device) to the belay loop would put three biners, sling, rope, backup knot/device all tight together...very hard to manage well. In reply to: That way if you mess up your rappel setup, for example if you only pushed the rope through the belay device without clipping them, you'll end up hanging on your belay loop when the rope pops out of the belay device, instead of hanging upside down on your leg loop. If you messed up your setup THAT way, I'd be seriously concerned about your safety in a whole myriad of other ways. If you are concerned about that kind of failure, extend your backup to above the device. The leg loop clip-in is only to backup your brake hand, not your rappel device. Jeff.
Extra, Extra, Blind leading Blind in thread on RC.COM!!!!
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sactownclimber
Jun 10, 2006, 2:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Another good reason to extend the belay device is so that you can clip the below-the-brake-hand backup into the belay loop. The only "below-the-brake-hand backup" that I can think of is a firemen's belay or a knot in the climbing rope...and you don't have to clip those in. Clipping your backup below the ATC (or whatever device) to the belay loop would put three biners, sling, rope, backup knot/device all tight together...very hard to manage well. In reply to: That way if you mess up your rappel setup, for example if you only pushed the rope through the belay device without clipping them, you'll end up hanging on your belay loop when the rope pops out of the belay device, instead of hanging upside down on your leg loop. If you messed up your setup THAT way, I'd be seriously concerned about your safety in a whole myriad of other ways. If you are concerned about that kind of failure, extend your backup to above the device. The leg loop clip-in is only to backup your brake hand, not your rappel device. Jeff. Extra, Extra, Blind leading Blind in thread on RC.COM!!!!
:roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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aikibujin
Jun 10, 2006, 3:10 PM
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In reply to: Clipping your backup below the ATC (or whatever device) to the belay loop would put three biners, sling, rope, backup knot/device all tight together...very hard to manage well.
Only the biner for the rappel backup is on the belay loop, the sling is girth hitched to the harness tie-in points, and the belay/rappel biner is clipped to the end of sling. It's not very hard to manage.
In reply to: If you messed up your setup THAT way, I'd be seriously concerned about your safety in a whole myriad of other ways. If you are concerned about that kind of failure, extend your backup to above the device.
Thanks for the concern about my safety, I appreciate it. My example was just that, the first example that came to my mind, there are certainly other ways one can become completely detached from the belay/rappel device, some we probably haven't seen yet until someone invents it in an accident. Would you be an idiot if you don't clip the ropes into the biner? Yes. But can you say it never happens? I personally don't make that kind of judgement on someone. Above-the-device backup certainly is one way to backup the rappel, but I don't like it for a couple of reasons. I use the below-the-device backup, and if I happen to be tired, cold, hungry, wet, and/or rappelling in the dark, it's good to know that if I totally botched my rappel setup, my backup may save me from dangling up-side-down on my leg loop and banging the back of my head on the rock.
In reply to: Extra, Extra, Blind leading Blind in thread on RC.COM!!!!
It's a Saturday, what aren't you out climbing? My excuse is that I'm in Florida, what's yours?
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jiw40
Jun 10, 2006, 3:31 PM
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Sounds amusing,but all very dangerous.One aspect that got my attention is that with the backup below the ATC it will put a load on the ATC when it engages.The scene my limited mind sees is this:While rappelling something unexpected happens,causing you to release your brake hand.Not to worry,youhave a backup(tied into your leg loop,VERY WRONG)which engages,flipping you upside down,thumping your noggin,rendering you unconcious.Now who(m?)ever comes to save you has to deal with a loaded backup and ATC.Impossible,no,but much more complicated than need be.Myself,I use a prusik made from 8' of cord,on the left side of the locking biner that the ATC is on.It stays above the ATC for comfortable hand position(left and right hand)and only one OR the other gets loaded,which helps them also avoid binding against each other on the locker.If someone has a safer,smoother technique I'd give it a try.But,as I think dirtineye was trying to say,it sounds like a lot of people are improvising in a bad way and touting those methods as being safe.
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rocketsocks
Jun 10, 2006, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: Sounds amusing,but all very dangerous.One aspect that got my attention is that with the backup below the ATC it will put a load on the ATC when it engages.The scene my limited mind sees is this:While rappelling something unexpected happens,causing you to release your brake hand.Not to worry,youhave a backup(tied into your leg loop,VERY WRONG)which engages,flipping you upside down,thumping your noggin,rendering you unconcious.Now who(m?)ever comes to save you has to deal with a loaded backup and ATC.Impossible,no,but much more complicated than need be.Myself,I use a prusik made from 8' of cord,on the left side of the locking biner that the ATC is on.It stays above the ATC for comfortable hand position(left and right hand)and only one OR the other gets loaded,which helps them also avoid binding against each other on the locker.If someone has a safer,smoother technique I'd give it a try.But,as I think dirtineye was trying to say,it sounds like a lot of people are improvising in a bad way and touting those methods as being safe.
Wow. Just wow. Are you being serious?
First off, unless you use a chest harness you will be just about equally likely to flip upside down no matter what configuration you use, since you'll be connected primarily via your harness tie in points / belay loop.
Second, there is a huge difference between an autoblock tied below the belay device and a prusik tied above it. A prusik above the belay device has to hold the entire body weight, and is thus very difficult to unweight once it has been weighted. Typically, you would need to stand up in a loop of rope below the belay device to unweight the prusik, this is not an easy procedure, especially if an injury is involved. Whereas, a friction hitch below the belay device only needs to hold the rappelling brake hand force, and can be easily unweighted with typical brake hand force, it requires no special actions other than just continuing to rappel.
The autoblock below the belay device method of rappel backup is pretty much the standard now and is recommended in many highly rated books.
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dirtineye
Jun 10, 2006, 4:17 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Extra, Extra, Blind leading Blind in thread on RC.COM!!!! It's a Saturday, what aren't you out climbing? My excuse is that I'm in Florida, what's yours?
Oh, just cancer and chemo side effects, nothing much really.
I prefer not to puke on the rocks.
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atliftoff
Jun 10, 2006, 4:40 PM
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In a sea of "what do YOU think went wrong....?" I'd like to express concern for this young man and his family and friends. This is a horrible accident and I will keep this person in my thoughts and hope for a full and well supported recovery.......... what a terrible day for all those near and dear............
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