|
dingus
Jun 16, 2006, 5:19 PM
Post #1 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
A romanian climber on this site mentioned in his country they cannot afford quality imported SS bolt hardware to protect their limestone routes. So thety make due with whatever crap hardware they can get. He said, "Safety is a luxury.' I got to thinking about this. From the perspective of American climbers, safety is often cited as a requirement, a necessity. Yet to the world at large, safety often seems to be beyond the reach of the common man, unaffordable. A rope bridge over a raging torrent of water with non-existant handrails would be a great example, such a bridge would be illegal in the US in many cases. Any opinions on this notion, that safety is a luxury? DMT
|
|
|
|
|
heiko
Jun 16, 2006, 5:46 PM
Post #2 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2005
Posts: 1505
|
I just read some statistics saying that in Germany the ratio of people dying from the effects of alcohol and nicotine compared to car accidents is about 30:1. So people go crazy about another little airbag here and there, safer tires, car bodies, etc etc., but then smoke two packs of cigarettes and get drunk 5 times a week. I think safety is a matter of definition, and of perception. How unsafe is a rotten piton or a 50 year-old slung piece of wood on a 5.8 climb if you master 5.11? How unsafe is the mythical microfractured biner in an equalized multi-piece anchor? Plus, what level of safety do we want? Avoiding death and nothing more, or avoiding to break a finger-nail? So I'd say safety is very very subjective. Although sometimes I wonder why people (including myself) don't feel a bit ridiculous about discussing "dangers" on a sport climb... ;) Is it a luxury? Looking at the situation of many many people in the world, I'd say that doing sports is a luxury, and safety is even more so.
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Jun 16, 2006, 5:49 PM
Post #3 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
I might argue instead that climbing is a luxury.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Jun 16, 2006, 5:49 PM
Post #4 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: Plus, what level of safety do we want? Vs what we can afford... I bet this discussion plays out daily in civil engineering circles the world over? Is our emphasis on 'safety first' a reflection of the affluence of our society? That we can even afford to think in these terms? DMT
|
|
|
|
|
heiko
Jun 16, 2006, 5:50 PM
Post #5 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2005
Posts: 1505
|
In reply to: I might argue instead that climbing is a luxury. Haha, you added that one while I edited my post to say the same ;)
|
|
|
|
|
heiko
Jun 16, 2006, 5:55 PM
Post #6 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2005
Posts: 1505
|
In reply to: In reply to: Plus, what level of safety do we want? Vs what we can afford... I bet this discussion plays out daily in civil engineering circles the world over? Is our emphasis on 'safety first' a reflection of the affluence of our society? That we can even afford to think in these terms? DMT Well, I would say that whenever we think "safety first", we are actually in a position where we have some kind of choice, aren't we?
|
|
|
|
|
keinangst
Jun 16, 2006, 6:34 PM
Post #7 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2003
Posts: 1408
|
Safety is a luxury in things like driving. Many people need to drive cars regardless of any danger, but the fact that cars are very safe these days just ADDS to the utilization of the medium. However, I can't think of any reason that someone would HAVE to climb in the modern day, so therefore safety should be an absolute prerequisite to participation. Anything short of full, reasonable safety (eg good SS bolts) is just taking an unnecessary chance in a completely unnecessary endeavor and--by definition--stupid. Might as well just grab the hemp rope and go bridge jumping. I just don't really believe the "can't afford bolts" line when you have a harness, rope, internet access, etc. Surely there are ways to pool money to purchase these things (case in point, the Iranian group featured in Climbing several months ago). My $0.02.
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Jun 16, 2006, 6:58 PM
Post #8 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
Dingus - interesting question. There was a science fiction story by Larry Niven (part of the Ringworld series, I believe) in which a character drew the conclusion that - because the city they were visiting had floating cities, the inhabitants did not have immortality (or extremely prolonged life spans). Unsaid (as I recall) was that they would have too much to lose should an accident occur.
|
|
|
|
|
devils_advocate
Jun 16, 2006, 7:18 PM
Post #9 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 18, 2006
Posts: 1823
|
In reply to: ...but then smoke two packs of cigarettes and get drunk 5 times a week. This is a bad thing? :D "Back in the day" climbers used to use whatever they could find in the hardware store. That's all there was. That was state of the art climbing safety at the time. It's not until something supperior comes out that you look down on what's below. I'm sure once some sort of titanium/spidersilk weaved matrix webbing gets invented and becomes the norm people will think climbing on traditional stuff is just crazy. I think a lot of countries are used to having products that are inferior to the quality of that from 'wealthy' countries. They've accepted that's how it is, and instead of sit around and worry about it, they live with it and move on. I think in addition to safety being subjective, as Heiko said, it's relative. Oh, and the only reason that the rope bridge would be illegal, is because of our legal system and affinity for suing anyone with more money than you.
|
|
|
|
|
jgivens
Jun 16, 2006, 7:26 PM
Post #10 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 10, 2006
Posts: 89
|
First, I need to correct dingus, he said he was responding to a Romanian climber's post, about safety being a luxury. I wrote that post, but I am not Romanian. I am an American Peace Corps volunteer serving in Romania. During my time living and working here, I have had the privilage to become a part of the local climbing community. But, as a Westerner, I have the added perspective of what it is like to climb in the West, compared to what it is like to climb in a post-communist, poverty stricken area. Okay, all that aside, I have to respond to this post by keinangst: ''I just don't really believe the "can't afford bolts" line when you have a harness, rope, internet access, etc. Surely there are ways to pool money to purchase these things (case in point, the Iranian group featured in Climbing several months ago). My $0.02.'' Are you kidding? First of all, that is spoken by a true 1st World climber. Not that this is a sob story, but as a Romanian in the Jiu Valley, you probably make a 100 euros a month (and a climbing rope cost 120). Your climbing gear is probably second hand rope and steel quicklinks from the hardware store, and maybe rubber rainshoes as climbing slippers. This may sound out-of-date, but I climbed with a guy the other day, and this is what he brought. So, no, you dont have good equipment to begin with. And about the Iranians, (without getting into a big debate over this) their economy is held up by oil, and SOME of that money is getting to the people. Lastly, the point I was trying to make, by saying that 'safety is a luxury', is that people will find a way to climb, no-matter what you've got to work with. The stakes just become a little higher. To some of these people, climbing is all they've got, and the danger is worth it. Anyway, sorry this went on so long...
|
|
|
|
|
keinangst
Jun 16, 2006, 7:50 PM
Post #11 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2003
Posts: 1408
|
In reply to: Are you kidding? First of all, that is spoken by a true 1st World climber. I didn't mean to come across as insensitive--I know you've seen a lot more than I have with your time in the Peace Corps, but I'm not your average ignorant American. That's why I qualified it with the comment about rope and harness...maybe I should have reworded it to emphasize the question on people's priorities: If you can afford a modern rope, harness, quickdraws, etc, then why not a set of used nuts or pool your money with friends for bolting (even if you have to improvise a bit, like your partner)? We're not talking about kids playing soccer/football in a field here, this is a deadly sport that requires a basic degree of safety. I think it's a bit exaggerating to say "it's all they have". We're not talking about food/clothing/shelter here, it's just a sport among many...and an inherently expensive one at that. FWIW, the article about the Iranians mentioned that bolting a route would cost more than a month's salary for the climbers individually (might have been a couple months'), which is why the organization was so important. I think that example stands up for anywhere in the 2nd or 3rd world.
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jun 16, 2006, 8:34 PM
Post #12 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
Nobody is making you climb bolted routes, or even routs that need bolts to be done more safely. Climbing is the luxury, not the safety. Climbing dangerously is potentially profligate spending of life. HAHA think on THAT one.
|
|
|
|
|
clayman
Jun 16, 2006, 8:36 PM
Post #13 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 20, 2004
Posts: 296
|
I wondering what the relation is between the increase in safety concerns vs the increase in the number of people who have insurance? hum..
|
|
|
|
|
chh
Jun 16, 2006, 8:59 PM
Post #14 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2005
Posts: 110
|
Saftey is a concept, and as such I think it is inherently relative. The idea of saftey, I think, is just the mind's attempt to corolate any possible action with with it's potentially negative (and positive) outcomes. More often than not, or perhaps in those scenarios most applicable to this argument, it is how actions with affect your physical well being. I think the comment that climbing is the luxury is right on. We (as privaleged members of a first world nation) "need" a lot of things that most of the world goes without. And what does a person get from climbing without what we deem safe equipment? Was their impetus to go and climb the same? Can you call that a luxury or does it exist in another realm? from the crappy dictionary at my desk: Luxury - 1. Something that is not essential but is conducive to pleasure and comfort. 2. Something that is expensive or hard to obtain. 3. Sumptuous living or surroundings. I think it's an interesting question. And I'll think about it more this weekend for sure. But now I have to go load my van with cams and drive to the crag....... :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
pastprime
Jun 16, 2006, 10:55 PM
Post #15 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2005
Posts: 251
|
Interesting question; and I absolutely believe safety is a luxury. Consider, for example, some hypothetical country where even the least expensive cars could be barely afforded, at great sacrifice and after years of saving, by maybe 1/2 the population, with most of the other half hoping someday to be even that well off. What do you think the chances are of politicians in such a country getting support for adding several thousand dollars to the cost of even the least expensive cars (and that is how much it is), by requiring crash resistant construction, air bags, dual braking systems, warning lights and buzzers for such things as door locks, seat belts not on, low brake fluid, etc. ? Here in the US, we not only readily accept it, but criticize anyone who opposes it, because we are affluent enough that we can still afford the cars even with those considerable added costs, and because we are also so affluent that new cars are kept for only a fraction of their useful life, which provides for those who can't buy new. If it were not for that affluence, and if large numbers of voters were on foot because of the cost of the safety equipment, we wouldn't have it.
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jun 17, 2006, 3:45 AM
Post #16 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
Being alive and healthy is a luxury. Safety comes later.
|
|
|
|
|
rockguide
Jun 17, 2006, 4:14 AM
Post #17 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 8, 2004
Posts: 1359
|
In reply to: I might argue instead that climbing is a luxury. bingo and the climbing continuum is a luxury ... how much money can we pour in Bouldering? sport? trad rack. The OP was also talking about fixed gear. Here we have first ascentionists putting money into routes for other people's luxuries. New routers may have to invest substantial amounts of cash to make the route safe or more safe. (I am not speaking of pure trad routes where the cost will be time, some chopped ropes, and some wire brushes, but routes with extensive fixed gear)
|
|
|
|
|
bdplayer
Jun 17, 2006, 6:32 AM
Post #18 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 26, 2003
Posts: 195
|
In reply to: Lastly, the point I was trying to make, by saying that 'safety is a luxury', is that people will find a way to climb, no-matter what you've got to work with. The stakes just become a little higher. To some of these people, climbing is all they've got, and the danger is worth it. Well said. I look around at some of the people I have known out on the cliffs, and some of them do amazing things with minimal gear, not as much for ethics, but it is all they can afford. Another friend, in his younger days, did nothing but free climbing in sneakers, because gas money to the mountains and back was more than a pair of shoes. Yet, these people must be better than your average well-equiped climber, because they have nothing to rely on other than skill and sheer tenacity. I guess you could say their safety is the knowledge that there is none. People is people the world round, whether here, China, East Europe, wherever. No matter how difficult circumstances, especially financial, they will find a way.
|
|
|
|
|
saltamonte
Jun 17, 2006, 11:55 AM
Post #19 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 23, 2004
Posts: 237
|
In reply to: ...It's not until something supperior comes out that you look down on what's below. I'm sure once some sort of titanium/spidersilk weaved matrix webbing gets invented and becomes the norm people will think climbing on traditional stuff is just crazy... I think in addition to safety being subjective, as Heiko said, it's relative. Oh, and the only reason that the rope bridge would be illegal, is because of our legal system and affinity for suing anyone with more money than you. Well put devils_advocate I believe that "safety" is to a significant degree relative to your expectations, and your expectations are to a big degree created by your experience. a good illustration would be the recent advent of bike helmets for kids. most of us here probably grew up riding a bike with no helmet. We and our parents felt "safe" by simply avoiding as much car traffic as possible "stay off busy roads" No one complained that we weren't safe because no one had expectations of anything safer. No one had those expectations because no one had ever experienced widespread helmet usage by anyone but serious athletes who reached speeds over 30 mph. Try sending your kid out on his bike with no helmet now and see how long it takes before your parenting skills are questioned. This because due to an increased availability and marketing of children's helmets many people have experienced a new level of safety therefor their expectations have been raised. and what was once "safe" is no longer. the same is true with Climbing. Each time a new level of safety is available it will at first seem to be a luxury, then as it is experienced by an increased number of climbers their expectations will be raised and it will begin to feel like a "requirement"
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Jun 17, 2006, 6:44 PM
Post #20 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
DMT I just returned home from attending series of seminars targeting safety in regards to few popular climbing gears and devices. After seen these stuff and talking to those who did these testing, I am scared and I do not how to bring up this issues online. One thing I could tell you is that in many countries , climbing is the poor mans sport and I have seen how climbers go to local bike shops and or iron shops to build their hangers and their copper heads using whatever is out there.
|
|
|
|
|
devils_advocate
Jun 19, 2006, 4:38 PM
Post #21 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 18, 2006
Posts: 1823
|
My parents made me wear a bicycle helmet on the way to school. I took the bus.
|
|
|
|
|
rockguide
Jun 19, 2006, 4:53 PM
Post #22 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 8, 2004
Posts: 1359
|
In reply to: My parents made me wear a bicycle helmet on the way to school. I took the bus. Did the helmet have masking tape on the front with your name on it? Was it Devil's advocate, even then? :lol: :lol: :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
kubi
Jun 19, 2006, 5:15 PM
Post #23 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 815
|
In reply to: FWIW, the article about the Iranians mentioned that bolting a route would cost more than a month's salary for the climbers individually (might have been a couple months'), which is why the organization was so important. I think that example stands up for anywhere in the 2nd or 3rd world. If sport routes cost between $1000 and $16,000 here in the states I highly doubt that ANY of us would be sport climbers.
|
|
|
|
|
devils_advocate
Jun 19, 2006, 5:50 PM
Post #24 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 18, 2006
Posts: 1823
|
In reply to: In reply to: FWIW, the article about the Iranians mentioned that bolting a route would cost more than a month's salary ... If sport routes cost between $1000 and $16,000 here in the states I highly doubt that ANY of us would be sport climbers. I'll worry about that when I'm making $16,000 a month. If I ever didn't have enough gear to get past something, screw putting in a bolt, I'd have someone build me an escalator.
|
|
|
|
|
saltamonte
Jun 19, 2006, 7:20 PM
Post #25 of 28
(3581 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 23, 2004
Posts: 237
|
In reply to: My parents made me wear a bicycle helmet on the way to school. I took the bus. we now know the subconcious reason you climb: Revenge on overprotective parents
|
|
|
|
|
|