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ter_bee
Jun 23, 2006, 1:28 AM
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i'm either brave or stupid for asking this, but i know some of you are genuinely cool people and have practice with this, so i'm gonna risk being flamed by the rest and ask a noobie tradder question:
how do you know when a tricam is set?
when i place tricams -- mostly in practice, but once in an actual lead -- i lay the strap between the rails in such a way that when i pull, the device cams into rock. it seems solid, but the bit that makes me uncomfortable is that when i let go, the cam lays flat again. in general i try to find sections of crack which get narrower toward me, so that even if the tricam doesn't cam when it's weighted, it will stay.
so my question is: should i yank until it won't move anymore? if so, i need to use smaller tricams than i have been, so that they are able to rotate into a static position. and that makes me nervous too: smaller tricams might not work in a passive way in the same crack.
help?
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cadaverchris
Jun 23, 2006, 1:46 AM
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when you set a tricam in its camming mode, you need to yank on that sucker enough to make it stick. it should not "rotate back" and lay flat. i think i understand what you're saying about tricam size, but this discussion is difficult for me without a visual.
suggestion: if possible find someone experienced to show you outdoors, or experiment a lot on the ground with them.
i usually try to place tricams in a sort of pod or 'capture' an enclosure that kind of cups around the piece- a divot for the nose of the tricam is sweet
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ter_bee
Jun 23, 2006, 2:07 AM
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exactly what i wanted to know, thanks. yeah, i think i'll practice this on top rope or on the ground. will report back (unless this becomes a flamefest). :-)
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cracklover
Jun 23, 2006, 2:16 AM
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In reply to: i'm either brave or stupid for asking this, but i know some of you are genuinely cool people and have practice with this, so i'm gonna risk being flamed by the rest and ask a noobie tradder question: how do you know when a tricam is set? when i place tricams -- mostly in practice, but once in an actual lead -- i lay the strap between the rails in such a way that when i pull, the device cams into rock. it seems solid, but the bit that makes me uncomfortable is that when i let go, the cam lays flat again. in general i try to find sections of crack which get narrower toward me, so that even if the tricam doesn't cam when it's weighted, it will stay. so my question is: should i yank until it won't move anymore? if so, i need to use smaller tricams than i have been, so that they are able to rotate into a static position. and that makes me nervous too: smaller tricams might not work in a passive way in the same crack. help?
It's hard to tell by your post, but you are talking about active orientation of the tricam - this:
http://cragx.com/shop/images/tricams.jpg
not the passive orientation of the tricam - this:
http://images.amazon.com/...QF2._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg
right?
Assuming you are talking about the active setting: No, you *must* yank it until it doesn't move when you release the sling. This is called "setting" the piece. Not only should it not fall back into the crack, but it should be able to withstand a little bit of jostling through its sling, without getting dislodged. It may take a little fiddling to find the right placement. It's especially helpful to have the nose fit into an indentation in the rock. Also helpful is if the rails of the tricam abut some sort of bulge, which keeps them from rotating. Lastly, the two rails must make good contact. If one side of the crack is wider than the other - don't expect the tricam to lock in well at all. And if it does, it may not stay there if fallen on!
Hope that helps.
GO
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tanner
Jun 23, 2006, 4:42 AM
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To add somthing...
You may/will find that the smaller tricams are the most secure to place(pink, red, brown,blue) The bigger ones are IMO not worth having.
Also another hint In horizontal cracks place the tricam stinger up(Freedom of the Hills)
Oh, the pink one is very useful!!!
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secretagent
Jun 23, 2006, 5:29 AM
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You got to yank on those suckers and wedge em.
PS. I lov Tricams and use my pink, red, blue,and grey ones the most.
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weasel
Jun 23, 2006, 9:53 AM
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In reply to: how do you know when a tricam is set?
When you fall and it doesn't rip. As with any peice of gear I suppose.
But seriously? Yeah, yank on them pretty good, but also keeping a little bit of weight on them constantly helps keep them pushing outward on the rock. If you've got the right size, a good yank should set it fairly well. Be careful though, I almost took a nice whip yesterday testing a red tricam. Visually being able to tell if a tricam will stay is a little harder than with a cam or nut. Sometimes they set, sometimes they don't.
I always sling mine, giving a bit of extra weight and some room for the rope to move around without dislodging it.
Good luck, tricams are freakin' sweet pieces of gear. Definitely worth knowing how to use.
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heiko
Jun 23, 2006, 10:36 AM
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Additionally, I'd say that you should choose the tricam small enough to that it actually goes into camming mode, meaning that the head rotates to a position around maybe 30° relative to the center line of the crack.
I cannot fully support the advice given above that in horizontals they should be placed with the stinger up. IMHO the more important thing - as also mentioned above - is to find a good spot for the stinger (behind a little egde, in a dent, etc.). If both orientations are equally possible, I tend to place the stinger downwards, as the other way round I've seen the pieces "collaps" if not tugged hard enough, or after receiving some inward push (also perceived as being "easy to clean"). This means that the stinger loses contact with the upper surface and the cam falls back to a horizontal orientation, causing it to rip - something that I think is less likely to happen if placed stinger-down.
Just my 2c tho.
Oh, and I also hardly ever clip the rope in directly, but always extend.
Good luck,
H.
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reg
Jun 23, 2006, 12:04 PM
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In reply to: I cannot fully support the advice given above that in horizontals they should be placed with the stinger up. IMHO the more important thing - as also mentioned above - is to find a good spot for the stinger (behind a little egde, in a dent, etc.). If both orientations are equally possible, I tend to place the stinger downwards, Oh, and I also hardly ever clip the rope in directly, but always extend. Good luck, H.
I totally agree - I think with the stinger down you'll have the additional weight and directional pull of it's own sewn runner, the sling and biner or draw and the clipped rope to help keep it in place.
you may also place an oppositional piece
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sweetchuck
Jun 23, 2006, 12:59 PM
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I second Weasel's comment. I know it's obvious, but be careful to keep your footing and be ready for the tricam to fly out when you are setting it. It's the same thing with other protection, but I too almost came flying off while setting a tricam a couple weeks ago. I am totally a new leader, but I find I always have to be very vigilant when placing pro to keep in mind my footing, body position, and overall situation. Here I am, far enough above my last piece to want to place some pro, and I am fiddling with gear, trying pieces, and assessing placement, it is easy to forget that you are standing in a precarious position with a lot of rope out. I find myself getting into the zone of placing the gear, and need to focus on the most important task: maintaining my own placement. Yep, I'm a noob, but with focus and patience, hopefully I will survive it.
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dirtineye
Jun 23, 2006, 1:32 PM
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IT's a good question, but there has bene a LOT written about tri-cams so first do a search, cause most of this had been covered.
But since I really like tri-cams, I'll tell you a few things that are so far missing here.
ONE. What sort of rock are you placing tri-cams in? Slick hard rock with highly parallel features and tri-cams don't work too well together. This is cam territory.
THe tri-cam needs to bite the rock a little. Also, placing the point in a little divot or behind some other feature is a good idea, as noted over and over again.
TWO. Yes, you set the tri-cam hard. if it falls back, and I know exactly what you mean by that, then either use a slightly smaller one, or find a better spot for the one you are working with.
THREE. you are correct to think you might be using too big a tri-cam, especially if you come close to having the point and the tail rail tips all three touching. on the same side of the placement. You can actually get a tri-cam so stuck this way that you will not get it back without a hammer.
FOUR. Point up or point down? LOL, this is so misunderstood, but really, take the one that allows you to set the tri-cam as firlmy and solidly as you can.
Physically, it make no difference if the point is up or down, because when all three points are in contact, there is no way the tricam can fall over. People think the tri-cam is more stable point up because gravity somehow helps the two rails more than the pointed side, but gravity has nothing to do with camming, and the tri-cam can't tip as long as the rails and point make good solid contact.
HOWEVER, rgold pointed out that if the sling can wander off to one side of the rail, point down might be subject to rotation, so keep that situation in mind.
FIVE. allowing the tri-cam ti 'tip back' a little, with the rail tails lower and the front up a little is OK, and actually good. they lock in better this way.
SIX. Nut placed tri-cams are also useful, they can seriously set very hard, and often work better than a regualr nut, so, don't be afraid to use em that way. The sling will go places a cable and swage will not go, BTW.
SEVEN. Slinging is important. Do not clip a tri-cam short, that is very dangerous unless you set the tri-cam in tensioned opposition (even with tensioned opp I don't like to clip short), or the piece is trapped. Short clipping is almost always bad with any piece, it has limited use in very special situations, and you should not do it unless you know you are in one of those situations.
The tri-cam allows some tricky neato-keen ways to avoid biners over edges, because it has a flexible native sling, and you can girth hitch or loop another sling onto the tricam sling to avoid the dangerous biner loaded on it's spine situation.
EIGHT. Big tricams are fine. but number 6 and up are not going to get placed too often unless you go looking for wider stuff. 3-5 are useful, IF yoyu havea lot of irregular larger placments to deal with.
I like to have doubles on the first 4 tri-cams, and carry up though all three blues all the time, unless I know the rock and climb are not tri-cam friendsly. The green adn grey and orange stay on the ground unless I suspect I may need em. the 6 and 7 stay in the car unless we KNOW we need em, LOL. THe ones you really need most are the pink, red and brown, and maybe first blue.
NINE. Tri-cams are magic. You will eventually learn that tricams can do strange and wonderful things, and are solid in the most bizarre looking unorthodox placements, to the point of making you and your second laugh-- but the crazy thing will hold a truck.
TEN. If the placement would cause the point to be close to the edge, as in, the rock near the point is close to air, then yo udo NOT put the point there, because there is twice as much force on the point as on the two rails, and the point can fracture the unsupported rock under a load, and then guess what happens?
I promise you do not want to learn this the hard way like I did, LOL!
Here are the diagrams:
http://i32.photobucket.com/...goldguy/100_0871.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/...goldguy/100_0870.jpg
This little problem can put you on the ground unexpectedly.
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saxfiend
Jun 23, 2006, 1:41 PM
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In reply to: I've *always* found that one orientation or the other is better at a given placement. Always go stinger up or stinger down based on what the _rock_ prefers.
As others have said, I always set my tricams with a good hard yank or two; but I also follow up with a yank (not quite as hard) to one side to make sure the piece is okay for a lateral pull. This is less of a concern if you extend the placement like you always should, but I still feel more comfortable if my tricam doesn't move with a side pull.
JL
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ter_bee
Jun 23, 2006, 2:49 PM
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thanks everybody! this is very cool of you. not being able to test my placements without a trampoline or a REALLY SOFT PARTNER, this kind of conversation is what i need.
dirtineye, thank you for the detail. it really helps. i did a search before posting and i realize there is a lot already out there on tricams, but the only post i could find about actually PLACING tricams (and not about how everyone loves the pink) was the stinger-up-versus-down-in-a-horizontal-crack thing and i read the whole thing before posting. so i started the process knowing that people don't agree on that point.
i climb at the red, so it's sandstone. the cracks we have been climbing are not parallel and vary in width both vertically and as you reach straight in -- a lot. passive gear works great; cams not so much.
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scrapedape
Jun 23, 2006, 3:20 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I've *always* found that one orientation or the other is better at a given placement. Always go stinger up or stinger down based on what the _rock_ prefers. Right on the money. As others have said, I always set my tricams with a good hard yank or two; but I also follow up with a yank (not quite as hard) to one side to make sure the piece is okay for a lateral pull. This is less of a concern if you extend the placement like you always should, but I still feel more comfortable if my tricam doesn't move with a side pull. JL
I'd like to second these points, and stress the importance of being especially aware of the direction of pull when placing a tricam, moreso than with most nut or cam placements. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't be conscious of it when placing a nut or a cam, but just to be extra vigilant with tricams. And extending them with a full-length sling is a good idea.
I believe CAMP advises using the largest tricam possible for the placement if you expect any loads to be applied in directions other than straight out. (e.g. if you are traversing to one side or the other as you climb above it) I have found this practice to produce placements that at least "feel" more secure.
My tip for becoming proficient with tricams is to practice placing them with one hand when you're leading easy stuff, or on the ground. This way you have time to fumble through the placements and get used to swinging them around in one hand or the other. Don't get dependent on using two hands to place them, or you'll be cursing your way through the one-handed learning curve while pumping out on a harder route.
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dirtineye
Jun 23, 2006, 3:52 PM
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OOPS I left out one thing-- when you should pay strict attention to the point oritentation.
If the placement would cause the point to be close to the edge, as in, the rock near the point is close to air, then yo udo NOT put the point there, because there is twice as much force on the point as on the two rails, and the point can fracture the unsupported rock under a load, and then guess what happens?
I promise you do not want to learn this the hard way like I did, LOL!
This is so important I will make a diagram and post it.
This little problem can put you on the ground unexpectedly.
I stuck the diagrams on the end of the first post I made. Go read it.
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redlegrangerone
Jun 23, 2006, 3:55 PM
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I love tri-cams. But I absolutely hate trying to clean them out of the little holes some people put them in. If I can not even get a nut tool in there, it takes forever to clean. But, there is nothing that feels so bomber.
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pastprime
Jun 23, 2006, 6:40 PM
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I seem to be the only person around who quite likes the big tricam on an orange sling; the one riveted together, instead of being forged. I always carry it if I think there might be a big crack up there somewhere. It's lighter than anything else that size, covers a wide range; and if I use it at all, it's usually not hard to get a pretty secure placement.
All of the placement advice above applies to the big pieces too, of course, but I think there security is a bit easier to evaluate.
Tri cams are solid when they are in good placements, and can be solid in some pretty weird spots, but I have had a few pop out on a hard test yank (watch your face, and make sure you are ready for it if it happens) in some strange odd spots where I really did expect them to hold.
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phang_nga
Jun 24, 2006, 5:52 AM
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In reply to: I seem to be the only person around who quite likes the big tricam on an orange sling
I noticed that on one of the threads where folks put up photos of their racks, a lot of them had big tricams.
I wonder what the difference is between using a big tricam vs using a big hex. Does one tend to set better or have a better range?
I couldn't find any other manufacturer of tricams other than Camp, yet I see Lowe tricams mentioned. I can't find them online though. Is Camp the only manufacturer?
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dirtineye
Jun 24, 2006, 3:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I seem to be the only person around who quite likes the big tricam on an orange sling I noticed that on one of the threads where folks put up photos of their racks, a lot of them had big tricams. I wonder what the difference is between using a big tricam vs using a big hex. Does one tend to set better or have a better range? I couldn't find any other manufacturer of tricams other than Camp, yet I see Lowe tricams mentioned. I can't find them online though. Is Camp the only manufacturer?
The REALLY big tricams (6, 7) have a greater range than the biggest hex I've seen, and they are more versatile.
MOST of the time, a tricam will do what a hex will do, and more. SOmetimes a Hex is still the best thing though.
For instance, in certain horizontals, the rockcentric hexes are sometimes better than a tricam in my opinion, because they have more bearing surface, and they set very well because of the curved side.
Lowe made the tri-cams a long time ago, got out of the gear biz, and camp got em, along with loweballs, which are shared by trango and camp, although all ballnutz (what the call loweballs now) are made at the same factory in korea (last I heard it was Korea, maybe that has changed now though).
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smorgasbord
Jun 24, 2006, 5:09 PM
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If the rock does not have a feature which facilitates a particular placement, the CAMP literature suggests stingers up if climbing directly above the placement, and stingers down if traversing or angling away from the placement. However, the stingers are the two points on the ends of the tricam, not the fulcrum. It seems that most people refer to the fulcrum as the stinger around here, and in this case, the "stinger" should be down.
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saxfiend
Jun 24, 2006, 9:38 PM
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In reply to: If the rock does not have a feature which facilitates a particular placement, the CAMP literature suggests stingers up if climbing directly above the placement, and stingers down if traversing or angling away from the placement. However, the stingers are the two points on the ends of the tricam, not the fulcrum. It seems that most people refer to the fulcrum as the stinger around here, and in this case, the "stinger" should be down.
I had to go back to the Camp pdf to find this strange reference to "stingers;" apparently they are the only ones who use this terminology for the points on the ends of the rails. Any actual climber who uses tricams and refers to the stinger is talking about the fulcrum point.
In any case, your citation above is incorrect. The Camp literature actually says:
"Sometimes if you're climbing directly above the placement, fulcrum down will offer the greatest security. At other times (when traversing or angling away from the placement) it's best to have the fulcrum up. But there are no hard and fast rules for this."
JL
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smorgasbord
Jun 24, 2006, 10:38 PM
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In reply to: I had to go back to the Camp pdf to find this strange reference to "stingers;" apparently they are the only ones who use this terminology for the points on the ends of the rails. Any actual climber who uses tricams and refers to the stinger is talking about the fulcrum point. In any case, your citation above is incorrect. The Camp literature actually says: "Sometimes if you're climbing directly above the placement, fulcrum down will offer the greatest security. At other times (when traversing or angling away from the placement) it's best to have the fulcrum up. But there are no hard and fast rules for this." JL
Righto, if (in CAMP's terminology) the fulcrum is down then the stingers are up when camming.
My post is a comment on CAMPs terminology. Earlier posters commented on sometimes confusing recommendations for the fulcrum up or down and although unlikely, some confusion could be due to the manufacturer terminology being different than that of the user. I have never heard anyone refer to the points as "stingers," only to the fulcrum as the single stinger, but I would assume that someone may actually use the language supplied by CAMP, which could contribute to the confusion.
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saxfiend
Jun 24, 2006, 11:43 PM
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smorgasbord, I think I understand your point, but it's just muddying the waters.
In reply to: Righto, if (in CAMP's terminology) the fulcrum is down then the stingers are up when camming.
Nowhere in the documentation is there any reference to "stingers" (in their terminology) up or down, or being in any way a functional part of the tricam.
If you make a tricam placement where your three points of contact with the rock are the stinger/fulcrum and the two points at the ends of the rails, you're using the wrong size tricam for the crack. Not a placement I would trust. :shock:
JL
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mtnlvr
Jun 25, 2006, 12:05 AM
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In reply to: ...If the fulcrum is down, the RAILS are up, ... |
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