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angry
Jun 21, 2006, 6:12 AM
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I hesitate to ask, because I am well aware of the clusterfuck this thread could become. Naysayers, people accusing me of asking just to spray, and the general crap comments that ensue when a mere rc.commer starts looking further than the next proj in Boulder canyon.
My question is specifically related to the style used when breaking a record. Or for you spray police, when ATTEMPTING to break a record. The record I am talking about is the unassisted Longs Peak Triathlon. In 1991 Roger Briggs rode his bicycle to the Longs Peak trailhead, ran to the Diamond, and free-soloed the Casual Route. Total time, 5:45.
There doesn't seem to be as much concern over the "style" used when we talk speed records in climbing. This allows people to not only break but SMASH prior records. This is usually accomplished by throwing out the style of the previous recordholder. I only ever hear about those that made it from bottom to top in the least amount of time.
My Black and White view: For those that care to keep records, a distinction needs to be made. An alteration from the original record style would warrant an asterisk*
Shade of Gray: If I can bring my fitness to the level I want, I will be attempting to break the current record for the Unassisted Longs Peak triathlon. I found out online that that ride started from 36th and Broadway. Logic would dictate that he rode to Lyons then up 7 until the trail head. At that point he ran carrying his climbing shoes to the Casual Route and proceeded to free solo it. The timer stopped at the top. There's a few details I don't know.
1. It says unassisted but he clearly needs to do something with his bike. Was a lock carried or did he throw it in a car waiting for him at the parking lot?
a. Should I be unlucky enough to get a flat, can I get a new wheel from a follow car or should I just scrap the effort that day and try again later?
2.The website wwwright.com states that Roger recieved water from his brother in the parking lot. Is this true? Can I get away with carrying only what water I need for the ride?
a.Does this hold true with shoes? Both running and climbing shoes? Much weight could be saved.
b.I'm assuming I can leave all my cycling stuff behind, I do want to double check though.
3. I've heard rumors of massive shortcuts on the trails. I don't know where these are, and I'd imagine that Roger did not use them. Still, I'd like to find out.
4. When do I stop the timer? I'm assuming that the timer stops when I touch the huge cairn on top of Longs. I'd like a little clarification though.
5. Finally, technology. I'm really beating myself over the head on this one. In 1991 the finest bike on the market was comparable to what you could purchase for about $1000 today. I sold my $7000 Litespeed over the winter, it's not in the game as it shouldn't be. It was not UCI legal it was so light. I will be riding my Olympus. It's aluminum, was state of the art in 2001 (ultegra + DA shifters and rear der.) I think it weighs around 16-17 lbs. I would bet that Roger's bike weighed 18-19. Is this fair? Should I add weight? Does anyone actually know what Rogers bike weighed? In 1991 it was possible to have a 15 lb bike, but this was extroidinarily rare.
a. UCI has gone as far as to outlaw aerodynamic bikes for track records. The 1-hour record slowed by about 3 minutes in the mid 90's when the rule took effect.
b. The UCI has a minimum weight, set geometry, and brake requirements but within those parameters, you can do anything on the road (track is a different story).
c. My bike will not have any aerobar or disc wheels, just a road bike.
d. Back on the weight issue, I will probably weigh about 132 lbs when I go for this. I've seen pictures of Roger, he's bigger and stronger than me. Probably 150-160 when honed, so the bike weight compared to body weight might actually be greater for me than him. Just a thought.
I've talked to several people about this. Some believe that the record is simply Boulder to the top of Longs via the Casual Route, anything I do in between is fair game. In fact, most people I've talked to believe this. I am not one of those people, I would like to find out, down to the smallest detail what methods were used. If any of you are friends with Roger Briggs, would you please point him toward this thread. PM me and I'll share an email address or phone #, I'm afraid I'm asking questions only Roger can answer.
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builttospill
Jun 21, 2006, 7:43 AM
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I'm not Roger Briggs. I can't answer any of these questions, but my opinion on #5 is that you should not worry about technology.
Records are frequently broken because of technology. In distance running, lighter shoes were made, tracks were made faster, etc. I mean, when comparing older records to newer records, sometimes you have to consider that old records were run on cinder tracks, versus mondo tracks of today......but the record is still broken and no asterisk is placed next to it.
That's just my opinion, and I'd be happy to elaborate if necessary, but I woudln't worry about the bike. I don't know anything about cycling, so maybe if a bike is illegal because it is SO far advanced, that would be questionable, but I don't see why. But then again, there are no rules like that in running.....you can run barefoot if you want, and some people do.
And, as you noted, you have a unique set of circumstances, some of which might be disadvantages.....you're smaller than Briggs, maybe there's more traffic on the road or trail (I don't know RMNP or Boulder), or whatever....the point is no record attempt is ever a perfect replica of the conditions faced by the original record holder, but that's the way it goes. I say go for it.
And good luck.
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angry
Jun 21, 2006, 3:49 PM
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In reply to: That's just my opinion, and I'd be happy to elaborate if necessary, but I woudln't worry about the bike. I don't know anything about cycling, so maybe if a bike is illegal because it is SO far advanced, that would be questionable, but I don't see why. But then again, there are no rules like that in running.....you can run barefoot if you want, and some people do.
The bike I will be riding will not be the ultra advanced one I alluded to. I sold that thing at a huge loss :cry: .
I don't know where I sit on this. When I was racing, everyone I raced had a very nice bike. It wasn't a big deal to ride a nice bike. What I can tell you though, in hillclimbs, the fittest guy won. Everytime.
There's always some guy on an old beater who crushes Mt. Evans, even though he couldn't keep up at a Wednesday night crit!!
I think most of the advances in bike technology have made them handle better and ride more comfortably. I don't think they go uphill much faster but they are lighter, so I put that out there.
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krusher4
Jun 21, 2006, 7:25 PM
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Dude, I say freaking go for it. Any one of those activies would take out most people. But all in a time that tight would be super rad. Who cares how you get there. Ride the lightest/fastest road bike you can find, have some buddies be your support team (hell PM me I'll help) have them follow you in a car, have a team in the parking lot below longs. Maybe even have a team stash so water for you. Just freaking go for it!!
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mdude
Jun 21, 2006, 8:03 PM
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Dude, go for it.
Don't worry about comparing you physique to Briggs. You are unique as is everyone. Something no record book tracks, or not much.
Just use your regular road bike. Just fine. UCI doesn't count in tri anyway.
To your questions.
1. It says unassisted but he clearly needs to do something with his bike. Was a lock carried or did he throw it in a car waiting for him at the parking lot?
Just stash the bike in the woods but I bet having a car there already is cool.
a. Should I be unlucky enough to get a flat, can I get a new wheel from a follow car or should I just scrap the effort that day and try again later?
Unassisted bro. carry a tube and co2. Mechanical is part of any race.
2.The website wwwright.com states that Roger received water from his brother in the parking lot. Is this true? Can I get away with carrying only what water I need for the ride?
Doesn't matter. There is water at the trail head and all up the trail. Good to drink to. Unassisted could mean no hand off, so fill your own bottle. 3 sec
These questions make it sound like you haven't been on Longs. You will want to scout the trail and the top of Keiners to top out. That is why Briggs is so fast. He knows the place.
a.Does this hold true with shoes? Both running and climbing shoes? Much weight could be saved.
True. I would stash them in the car at the trail head. But if you are a purist, you have to carry them.
b.I'm assuming I can leave all my cycling stuff behind, I do want to double check though.
Sure
3. I've heard rumors of massive shortcuts on the trails. I don't know where these are, and I'd imagine that Roger did not use them. Still, I'd like to find out.
No rumor about it. There are massive short cuts. Everyone uses them. NPS, topher, Caldwell, Briggs, Colorado mountain school guides. The record holder for the fastest time up longs does not reveal his route. I bet the Briggs used the short cuts.
4. When do I stop the timer? I'm assuming that the timer stops when I touch the huge cairn on top of Longs. I'd like a little clarification though.
Yep. time stops when you tag the USGS marker at the top. There is no cairn just a boulder.
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j_ung
Jun 21, 2006, 8:24 PM
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No advice here. I just want to say that I respect your attempts to match the style in which the previous record was set. Go get it!
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angry
Jun 21, 2006, 8:41 PM
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Krusher, when I get ready to go, I'll PM you. Probably mid to late July. I'm going to need someone to be on top of Longs and wait for me and stop the clock at the right time.
mdude, I ran up Longs yesterday. Did the Loft trail and other exploring. Honestly, I didn't notice water in the parking lot but I took off at 4am wasn't paying close attention. Water on the trail, I'm not worried about that. The streams looked fine but if I fill my mini-camelback at the trailhead, I won't need to refill until I'm finished.
Sure I could carry a spare and CO2, but I'm such a fan of tubulars.
When I was there yesterday, I saw a 3 ft tall cairn. 50 feet east of it there was a USGS marker. There were boulders everywhere, saying I have to tag a boulder is....vague.
I'd like to find more about the shortcuts. Those are some long (no pun intended) switchbacks.
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mdude
Jun 22, 2006, 4:13 AM
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In reply to: Yep. time stops when you tag the USGS marker at the top. There is no cairn just a boulder.
Not so vague, note USGS marker. Its on the big boulder with the summit log and the marker. Really there is 3-4 markers up there. The one on the boulder is the highest.
Yep, there is a faucet for water just a few paces up the trail on your left going up.
MD
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flamer
Jun 22, 2006, 7:14 PM
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As someone who has played the speed game I'd say you're being way to anal about alot of this. The difference in your physic verus's brigg's?? Come on dude!!
The key is to be honest about what you did and how you did it. Using a ligter bike? That's cool. Not carrying as much gear? That's cool. Short cuts? yep.
A big key in going after any speed record is research. Figuring out every detail to make it go faster. Briggs most likely did it when he did the OG Longs Tri. If not then he left a huge advantage for someone else. Although he probably didn't care if someone came along and did it faster.
I'm not real sure why you'd post this here though.
josh
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angry
Jun 22, 2006, 11:21 PM
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In reply to: I'm not real sure why you'd post this here though.
In reply to: A big key in going after any speed record is research.
:lol:
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feanor007
Jun 23, 2006, 1:02 AM
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go for it, this is a cool record, not like some of those cascade flame wars. if i was in co this summer, i'd help out however possible, as is i'll root from ky amd wait for a tr.
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flamer
Jun 23, 2006, 9:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I'm not real sure why you'd post this here though. In reply to: A big key in going after any speed record is research. :lol:
Well then you don't know The average RC user very well.....or you do because I was alluding to something.
Beside's I'd say you're screwed from the start....There's no way Brigg's had the internet to Research/spray on.
josh
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mack_north
Jun 23, 2006, 9:54 PM
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My night companion Amy used to play chimes in a Celtic folk band with this guy who had a brother that did satellite images for StratCom. I shall have him pull all the satellite images from Briggs' big day to see if we can verify that the asphalt on the highway between Boulder and the trailhead is in similar condition today. If it has weathered a bit, perhaps you can claim an infrastructural disadvantage.
Also, I think Briggs stopped for 35 seconds to exchange pleasantries with that old dude that hangs around the Longs Ranger Station. If he isn't around maybe you can do a few pullups off the roof of the outhouse or something. Just to keep it fair.
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angry
Jun 23, 2006, 9:58 PM
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In reply to: Well then you don't know The average RC user very well.....or you do because I was alluding to something. Beside's I'd say you're screwed from the start....There's no way Brigg's had the internet to Research/spray on. josh
Maybe I'm dense, no clue as to what you were alluding to though. I would agree that it's unlikely that Briggs comes by and flames n00bs though. I was just hoping for a grapevine effect and I'd get some answers.
This post has helped me research how I want to approach this thing. The style that I want to do it etc. There are a small number of people who have been truly helpful since I put this post up.
Another question, more anal details. Do you know if Roger traversed left at Table Ledge then took Kieners up? Or did he continue straight up the 10c or 9+ (depends on what book/topo you look at). I took Kieners to top out yesterday, it felt really slow and indirect.
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