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Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts?
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jjanowia


Jun 26, 2006, 9:22 AM
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Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts?
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I was taught (by friends who were climbers, not experienced guides or instructors) that I should carry one daisy chain girth hitched to my harness for when I reach bolt anchors on a sport climb. Upon gaining the anchors, clip the daisy into one of the bolts with a locking biner, and then set up an anchor with slings, etc. for a toprope, or thread the rope through for a rappel if no one else will TRing the climb.

I've seen people doing this with slings girth-hitched as well, but was told it is more convenient to use the daisy because one can adjust the length to avoid awkward positioning.

I'm concerned that this is not a redundant system. Should I be carrying two daisies (or slings) girth hitched to my harness, and clipping them each into a separate bolts while I set up an anchor?


beesty511


Jun 26, 2006, 9:40 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I'm concerned that this is not a redundant system. Should I be carrying two daisies (or slings) girth hitched to my harness, and clipping them each into a separate bolts while I set up an anchor?
Yes. But two daisies are too bulky. That's why people use slings.


caughtinside


Jun 26, 2006, 9:49 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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The simplest way to do it is to have a couple extra quick draws. Chain them together onto your belay loop, into each bolt. This way you're on both bolts, and you also avoid the unfortunate consequence of looking like the gumby with a daisy chain.

Daisy chains are for aid.


norsk


Jun 26, 2006, 10:31 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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I agree that using a daisy chain is bulky (not to mention the possibility of a blowout if used incorrectly), but I disagree that one should use extra draws clipped together to attach themselves to the anchor bolts. The main reason for this is simply because it can increase the chance of something going wrong. Imagine you have two draws chained together going to each bolt, for a total of four draws. That is many parts that could fail, or get bumped into and open up, etc. Morevoer, if others have climbed the route and there already are draws there (in use as the anchor), and the last climber attaches themselves to the anchor with even more draws so they can begin cleaning the route, now there is nothing but a mess of draws and a weary climber could become confused and unclip the wrong one. Finally, carrying extra draws for this use adds expense and weight, although both I suppose are marginal.
I think the best thing to do is to have two brightly colored slings attached to your harness with a girth hitch and use those to attach to the anchor. Cheaper, lighter, less likely to get confused with something else, and less likely to fail.


justthemaid


Jun 26, 2006, 10:31 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Yeah- you can just girth hitch a runner or I've got one of those really thin daisys (basically a 24"runner with some stitched loops).

More often than not when it's a sport climb with two bolts at the top, I'll just use my spare quickdraws to hook into both bolts.

In your case if you like your daisy- just use linked quickdraws for the second bolt.


bill413


Jun 26, 2006, 10:36 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Upon gaining the anchors, clip the daisy into one of the bolts with a locking biner, and then set up an anchor with slings, etc. for a toprope, or thread the rope through for a rappel if no one else will TRing the climb.

I'm concerned that this is not a redundant system.

Well, if you are still on belay (like while setting up an anchor for TR) it is redundant, because, if your single bolt fails, the belay should catch you at the next one. If you are taking the belay off, then you really want redundancy in what you are clipped into, and having it in what you are clipped in with is nice also.

If you are using a daisy chain, make sure you look at the threads about how it can become unclipped (the daisy chain magic trick) if more than one pocket is clipped with the same carabiner. Also, make sure you stay below the anchors, or else, if you slip, you could exert a tremendous load on the anchors since the daisy chain is not a dynamic system.


olib


Jun 26, 2006, 10:46 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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For single pitch sport I only carry quickdraws. If I am leading I carry two extra draws made from runners and locking biners. I don't thread the rope through the anchor bolts, just clip on the last two draws, clip in to those and lower.

The 2nd climbs the other end of the rope, cleaning on his way up. When he reaches the top he goes direct with the draws he cleaned, threads the rope and raps down.

This system is very simple, requires very little gear, and there is virtually no wear on the anchor bolts.


pnoone


Jun 26, 2006, 10:51 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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How about a 6mm cord (looped with a double fisherman's). If you use a prussik loop in the end you'll want to clip (the end that you'll clip your locker to then clip into the anchor) the length is adjustable, which is a great feature. It's light enough that you could carry two for redundancy.


potreroed


Jun 26, 2006, 11:11 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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The daisy chain is fine; you can always clip it to both bolts.


kovacs69


Jun 26, 2006, 11:17 AM
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We have beat this subject to death. Just do a search for this subject...I guarantee there are lots of threads covering daisy chains and their uses.

JB


rockprodigy


Jun 26, 2006, 11:20 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.

Oh yeah, and IC is a sport crag, so if you have a daisy there, guess what?


kiwijason


Jun 26, 2006, 11:35 AM
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I always use a chicken sling when ever I am near an edge, when I get to the top of a climb and I start putting in pro for an anchor I am on belay from below (as long as my second is still awake) and I clip the chicken sling to the first bit of pro, the second bit of pro that goes in gets a alpine hitch clipped in to it from my climbing rope (which is tied in to my harness at the right length to allow for movement). Once the anchor is finished and equalized etc I might re clip the chicken sling to the focal point of the anchor but I leave the rope clipped where it is till I am ready to lead the next section, once I am back on belay and ready to climb I unclip the rope last and climb on. At no time is there no redundancy because I am on belay till I have two points clipped in and I have built my anchor. The belay only then comes off so my second can start climbing. I don't use the daisy chain as such I use the Mett PAS that has the sewn loops.


mped


Jun 26, 2006, 12:00 PM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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I was at REI a couple of weeks ago looking at the Metolius PAS

http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/pas.htm

Anyway, reading the directions it works like this: girth hitch specified end to harness, clip the next loop to desired distance to bolt 1, and clip last loop, which has a different color to bolt 2.

I am unsure, but I think one would not have a problem if they did they same with a daisy chain. I "feel" safer with something like PAS over a D-chain.


paganmonkeyboy


Jun 26, 2006, 12:21 PM
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Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.

Oh yeah, and IC is a sport crag, so if you have a daisy there, guess what?


w00t ! i've been promoted to gumby !!! and i was stuck at n00b for what seemed like forever...

(off topic - anyone else listen to daisy chainsaw ? they rock...)


codhands


Jun 26, 2006, 1:08 PM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Right or wrong this is my method. I take a 48" runner, clove hitch it in the middle through my tie-in points, put a locker on each end, and clip them to a gear loop. This set-up has worked well for me and it has proven to be very versatile. Anyone see any problems with that? If you do then tell me why.


secretagent


Jun 26, 2006, 6:21 PM
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I always carry a daisy but I don't always feel the need to use it.
Also I carry a 48inch runner which like the daisy is not always used, I guess what I'm trying to say is the use of these tools can both be useful but use is situational.


roninthorne


Jun 27, 2006, 3:19 AM
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Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.

Don't know if it's fair or justified, but you're wrong. Working gear + comfort = safety. Being concerned about what someone else thinks of your gear is assinine and some combination of paranoid and narcissistic. Use what is safe and works for you. That's what it is all about in the end.

And THAT is a fact.


Partner heiko


Jun 27, 2006, 4:00 AM
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kewl, another daisy chain thread! :lol:

there are safety issues resulting from wrong use of daisy chains, so maybe you want to check this thread for the gory details:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ewtopic.php?t=111061

I got a daisy chain, and retired it soon after. After your first time in a hang-belay for an hour you will realize that the 2 minutes you spend at the top anchor of a sport climb are meaningless, and thus don't require special gear to make it more convenient. Just use one (or two!) normal shoulder-length slings, anchor, thread the rope, and leave. Some people use a chain of draws, as mentioned. Others use an adjustable friction knot on cord. Some use a prusik. Do what suits you best. If you're a beginner, a redundant solution seems advisable tho.


edited n times to correct spelling.


flying_k


Jun 27, 2006, 11:21 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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I was taught Daisy chains are not safe.
I am a new climber and should probably keep my mouth shut but I feel a few points that should be raised here.
First if you are using a sling or daisy girth to your harness it should be short enough that you can always reach it when it is at full length.
Second if you are on belay why not clip a biner to the bolt and clip your rope, then build your anchor and then clip your sling or daisy to the master point.
I have a 30in. sling girthed to my harness and with an overhand not at half length so I can tie in at full length or half
The few leads I have done (both of them) had no bolts so I put in a piece clipped it then built a bomber serene and then cliped my runner to the master point.

I have only been climbing eight times now so take this with a grain of salt and let me know if I am wrong.
cheers Kenny


potreroed


Jun 27, 2006, 11:27 AM
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Rockprodigy is wrong (he's probably one of those super-macho trad climbers) I've been climbing for 39 years and have put up over 100 routes, including some of the longest bolted routes in the world so I don't think I qualify as gumby. Sport or trad I always keep a daisy chain (Metolius PA system) girth hitched to my harness.


caughtinside


Jun 27, 2006, 11:33 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Rockprodigy is wrong

No, his reply was correct. He even pointed out that the perception of gumby may not be right or fair, but that it is there.

And you know why that perception is there? Because at a sport crag, a daisy chain is unnecessary gear. 95% of the time, the climber at the sport crag with a daisy chain is either a gumby, or a visiting trad climber, who is also likely to rap down after completing the route.

Like he mentioned, it may not be right or fair, but there it is.

If you're a sport climber, there's no reason to buy a $25 daisy, when the same job can be done with 2 draws, which are more versatile and useful.


jt512


Jun 27, 2006, 11:55 AM
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I'm concerned that this is not a redundant system.

It's not. Most experienced sport climbers simply clip in with two ordinary quickdraws. But no matter which system you choose, you should always be independently clipped in to two anchor points before untying from the rope or being taken off belay.

Jay


jt512


Jun 27, 2006, 12:10 PM
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Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Your equation is a special case of a more general one:

X + Sport Crag = Gumby, where X = just about anything on your harness, other than quick draws.

X may take on the following values, for instance:
    [*:c36fe59d30]locking carabiner(s)

    [*:c36fe59d30]prusik(s)

    [*:c36fe59d30]quick link(s) :shock:

    [*:c36fe59d30]ATC (rarely justified)

Jay


sketch


Jun 27, 2006, 1:58 PM
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Check out this 10 page guide on how to clean bolted anchors. It was put together by Rick Weber, owner of Muir Valley Nature Preserve in Kentucky. This method is my personal preference for cleaning routes at Red River Gorge:

http://www.muirvalley.com/pdf/CleaningBook_v1.pdf


jt512


Jun 27, 2006, 2:13 PM
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In reply to:
Check out this 10 page guide on how to clean bolted anchors. It was put together by Rick Weber, owner of Muir Valley Nature Preserve in Kentucky. This method is my personal preference for cleaning routes at Red River Gorge:

http://www.muirvalley.com/pdf/CleaningBook_v1.pdf

That technique requires 4 :shock: locking carabiners, an ATC, and a prusik. See my list above. This is a record-breaking gumby technique!

Jay

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