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caughtinside


Jun 27, 2006, 2:24 PM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Check out this 10 page guide on how to clean bolted anchors. It was put together by Rick Weber, owner of Muir Valley Nature Preserve in Kentucky. This method is my personal preference for cleaning routes at Red River Gorge:

http://www.muirvalley.com/pdf/CleaningBook_v1.pdf

That technique requires 4 :shock: locking carabiners, an ATC, and a prusik. See my list above. This is a record-breaking gumby technique!

Jay

If you engage in all that nonsense, do you have time to climb more than 2 routes a day?

But the guide was, if nothing else, thorough! :shock:


jt512


Jun 27, 2006, 2:33 PM
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Check out this 10 page guide on how to clean bolted anchors. It was put together by Rick Weber, owner of Muir Valley Nature Preserve in Kentucky. This method is my personal preference for cleaning routes at Red River Gorge:

http://www.muirvalley.com/pdf/CleaningBook_v1.pdf

That technique requires 4 :shock: locking carabiners, an ATC, and a prusik. See my list above. This is a record-breaking gumby technique!

Jay

If you engage in all that nonsense, do you have time to climb more than 2 routes a day?

But the guide was, if nothing else, thorough! :shock:

Yeah. An 11-page PDF to explain what normally takes a paragraph!

Jay


colotopian


Jun 27, 2006, 2:56 PM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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I was taught (by friends who were climbers, not experienced guides or instructors) that I should carry one daisy chain girth hitched to my harness for when I reach bolt anchors on a sport climb. Upon gaining the anchors, clip the daisy into one of the bolts with a locking biner, and then set up an anchor with slings, etc. for a toprope, or thread the rope through for a rappel if no one else will TRing the climb.

I've seen people doing this with slings girth-hitched as well, but was told it is more convenient to use the daisy because one can adjust the length to avoid awkward positioning.

I'm concerned that this is not a redundant system. Should I be carrying two daisies (or slings) girth hitched to my harness, and clipping them each into a separate bolts while I set up an anchor?

Watch the 'tech video' at the bottom... :D
http://www.bdel.com/...l/daisys_detail.php#


jt512


Jun 27, 2006, 3:02 PM
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I was taught (by friends who were climbers, not experienced guides or instructors) that I should carry one daisy chain girth hitched to my harness for when I reach bolt anchors on a sport climb. Upon gaining the anchors, clip the daisy into one of the bolts with a locking biner, and then set up an anchor with slings, etc. for a toprope, or thread the rope through for a rappel if no one else will TRing the climb.

I've seen people doing this with slings girth-hitched as well, but was told it is more convenient to use the daisy because one can adjust the length to avoid awkward positioning.

I'm concerned that this is not a redundant system. Should I be carrying two daisies (or slings) girth hitched to my harness, and clipping them each into a separate bolts while I set up an anchor?

Watch the 'tech video' at the bottom... :D
http://www.bdel.com/...l/daisys_detail.php#

good link!


colotopian


Jun 27, 2006, 3:09 PM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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I was taught (by friends who were climbers, not experienced guides or instructors) that I should carry one daisy chain girth hitched to my harness for when I reach bolt anchors on a sport climb. Upon gaining the anchors, clip the daisy into one of the bolts with a locking biner, and then set up an anchor with slings, etc. for a toprope, or thread the rope through for a rappel if no one else will TRing the climb.

I've seen people doing this with slings girth-hitched as well, but was told it is more convenient to use the daisy because one can adjust the length to avoid awkward positioning.

I'm concerned that this is not a redundant system. Should I be carrying two daisies (or slings) girth hitched to my harness, and clipping them each into a separate bolts while I set up an anchor?

Watch the 'tech video' at the bottom... :D
http://www.bdel.com/...l/daisys_detail.php#

good link!

Thanks. :D If you must use something like this use this by metolious...
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/pas.htm


Partner heiko


Jun 28, 2006, 3:03 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Check out this 10 page guide on how to clean bolted anchors. It was put together by Rick Weber, owner of Muir Valley Nature Preserve in Kentucky. This method is my personal preference for cleaning routes at Red River Gorge:

http://www.muirvalley.com/pdf/CleaningBook_v1.pdf

That technique requires 4 :shock: locking carabiners, an ATC, and a prusik. See my list above. This is a record-breaking gumby technique!

Jay

If you engage in all that nonsense, do you have time to climb more than 2 routes a day?

But the guide was, if nothing else, thorough! :shock:

Yeah. An 11-page PDF to explain what normally takes a paragraph!

Jay

Seems safe and sensible to me. Plus, if you're getting lowered instead of rapelling, you need less gear.


rockprodigy


Jun 29, 2006, 7:15 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Rockprodigy is wrong (he's probably one of those super-macho trad climbers) I've been climbing for 39 years and have put up over 100 routes, including some of the longest bolted routes in the world so I don't think I qualify as gumby. Even when I climb trad I always keep a daisy chain (Metolius PA system) girth hitched to my harness.

Shouldn't your signature block read:

"Climbing big walls with a dozen draws a single rope [and a ratty, gumby-attracting daisy chain] is a beautiful thing."

You may not "qualify as gumby", but you look like one, and as they say, perception is reality. But then, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so maybe you are a beautiful gumby.


potreroed


Jun 29, 2006, 7:38 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Perhaps you're right. Should I also mention that I usually climb with a small crescent wrench (for tightening loose bolt hangars) and often with a small pruning shears (for cleaning vegetation) as well as a small container for my emergency heart medication? There's sport crags and then there's sport walls.


wanderinfree


Jun 29, 2006, 9:23 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Rockprodigy is wrong (he's probably one of those super-macho trad climbers) I've been climbing for 39 years and have put up over 100 routes, including some of the longest bolted routes in the world so I don't think I qualify as gumby. Even when I climb trad I always keep a daisy chain (Metolius PA system) girth hitched to my harness.

Shouldn't your signature block read:

"Climbing big walls with a dozen draws a single rope [and a ratty, gumby-attracting daisy chain] is a beautiful thing."

You may not "qualify as gumby", but you look like one, and as they say, perception is reality. But then, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so maybe you are a beautiful gumby.

Wow. Thanks for enlightening all of us. You have helped me see the error of my ways. Rather than climbing for the pure enjoyment of my time on the rock and pushing my own physical limits, I should be far more concerned with my "style" signature says about me. I couldn't give a rat's ass what people think of me--particularly when it's based on my use of a daisy, gri-gri, whatever. Last I checked, high school was over. Climb with what you feel comfortable and safe on. The rest is just pretentious bullshit.


glowering


Jun 29, 2006, 10:01 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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I can't understand why some people are more concerned about convenience and not looking like a gumby (to lame people that would pass that type of judgement) than safety, but to each his own.


phillygoat


Jun 29, 2006, 10:34 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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There is a correlation between looking like a gumby and ignoring a better way to do something. I am sensitive to this because I'm always up to learn a better (faster, more efficient, less bulky) way to climb.

But... You can only care so much- I still attach my chalkbag to my harness via carabiner. :D


slicari


Jul 1, 2006, 6:33 AM
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I agree that this thread has turned more into an insult fest than anything else.

To the original post, I use a 48" daisy. I have been climbing for almost three years and have not run out of uses for it. I use it when I'm building an anchor close to an edge for top rope, hooking into anchors as backups for trad, and hooking into bolts at the top of sport climbs. I'm sure you could do the same thing with runners, it just depends on what you can afford and how you learned. I always use two biners if I am clipping in short. One locker at the end and a basic oval at the specific length that I need. I also clip into each bolt at the the top (being redundant).

As to the safety, watch the video on Black Diamonds web site if you haven't yet. It's linked higher up. I watched it and had no idea that it was possible. But I always used two biners anyways. :D

Don't pay any attention to people that pass judgment on you and your abilities based on the gear that you use. Listen if they are commenting on how you use it, but not what you use. And even that take it for what it's worth. I'd prefer to look like a "gumby" than practice something that I'm not familiar with or see as unsafe and make a fatal mistake.

As to all the people that like to pass judgment on other climbers... what's your climber doing while you are on belay and looking at someone else's setup instead of looking up?


jjanowia


Jul 1, 2006, 8:02 AM
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Thanks - the video was helpful. I find it incredibly unfortunate that there is so much hater-ific hating on this site. I suppose that wading through the BS is the price of getting 'free' advice.

I'm not a fashionista, so I will continue to use the daisy chain.


shockabuku


Jul 1, 2006, 10:20 AM
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A technique that can add a measure of redundancy to your daisy chain use is to use a remaining quickdraw to connect the two anchor bolts together. Someone else mentioned that you can do the same thing by clipping in the daisy chain to the second bolt using another loop on the daisy. It isn't as good a solution as using equalized, independent connections to the two bolts, but it's better than nothing.


maldaly


Jul 1, 2006, 10:48 AM
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Here's a great technique that hasn't been mentioned. It doesn't require extra gear and the climber (cleaner) is always backed up.

The first one up clips the anchors with 24" runners instead of draws. When the last person cleans the pitch she leaves the last draw in place, unclips her rope and clips in the rope that goes down to the belayer. At the anchors, unclip one of the runners from the rope and clip it to the belay loop of your harness. Then do the same with the next. Now do whatever it is you're going to do with the rope (I prefer to thread a bight of rope through the lowering points, tie a figure 8 and clip that into my belay loop with a locker. Then I yell "TAKE", check to see that the system works and that my belayer actually has me, then untie my knot.) and lower off. Clean the last draw as you go past it.

I like this system because:
- you never go off belay
- you're always into at least two independent anchors
- 24" runners allow you a natural position away from the rock to do you thing.
- the only change is gear is to have the leader clip the anchors with 24" runners instead of draws.
- no need to run daisys

While I'm on the subject, I've seen a couple of habits more and more at the sport crags that have killed people.

#1 - When you clip the anchors at the top and are about to clean them DO NOT call down "off", "off belay" or, the current favorite, "I'm in straight". Unless you're setting up a rappel, telling your belayer that you're off can only result in bad stuff happening. It only tells the belayer that she can take you off and that's killed people.

#2 - When you're ready to lower, regardless of weather you've just cleaned the anchors or clipped them, grab the end of the rope that heads to the belayer. It's a really, really simple back up so if the belayer has spaced you'll still be able to hold yourself. Right after that, look down at her and confirm visually that you're actually on belay and she's ready to lower you. It scares the hell out of me to see climbers get to the top, toss the rope through the hooks or chains and just let go without even a glance down to confirm that they're on belay. Too many people have hit the deck from that move.

Climb safe,
Mal


majid_sabet


Jul 1, 2006, 10:58 AM
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You guys may argue over this but, I recently spend two days in seminar, instructor was presenting his test result where he dropped 100 kg weight on a daisy only 1 to 1 1/2 meter simulating a climber standing on a ledge. The result was bad, in fact it was very ugly, every daisy failed but three.

An old school 1 inch daisy (Not sure if any one makes them these days), an 8 mm cord made in to an adjustable semi prussic and the last one, it was a daisy with a screamer built-in which survived.

The test involved video cam and load sensor measuring both forces and time, in less than 0.4 second to 1.6 second a lot things are happening to your set up.
Anyway, my suggestion, use a second backup such as main rope or a cord in addition to your daisy.


jt512


Jul 1, 2006, 10:59 AM
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A technique that can add a measure of redundancy to your daisy chain use is to use a remaining quickdraw to connect the two anchor bolts together.

My nomination for Gumby Innovation of the Year. "Shockabuku." What an appropriate name for someone who would invent such a technique.

Jayh


redrocker


Jul 2, 2006, 4:22 PM
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[quote="rockprodigy"]Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.
Anyone who uses a method different from rockprodigy=Gumby
Arrogant, know-it-alls like rockprodigy=extremely undesirable climbing partners

Whether I'm sport or trad climbing I always have a Metolius PAS girth hitched through my leg and waist tie in point and equipped with a locking biner and always use at least one quickdraw to back it up. I also always have a autoblock backup girth hitched to my leg loop and equipped with a small locking biner. I have enough self esteem to not care what others think of my safety considerations and enough good sense not to climb with the rockprodigy types.


djoseph


Jul 2, 2006, 7:09 PM
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When you're ready to lower, regardless of weather you've just cleaned the anchors or clipped them, grab the end of the rope that heads to the belayer. It's a really, really simple back up so if the belayer has spaced you'll still be able to hold yourself. Right after that, look down at her and confirm visually that you're actually on belay and she's ready to lower you.

Good call on this, Malcolm... someone should sticky this point.

Dan


karlbaba


Jul 2, 2006, 9:42 PM
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You guys may argue over this but, I recently spend two days in seminar, instructor was presenting his test result where he dropped 100 kg weight on a daisy only 1 to 1 1/2 meter simulating a climber standing on a ledge. The result was bad, in fact it was very ugly, every daisy failed but three.

An old school 1 inch daisy (Not sure if any one makes them these days), an 8 mm cord made in to an adjustable semi prussic and the last one, it was a daisy with a screamer built-in which survived.

The test involved video cam and load sensor measuring both forces and time, in less than 0.4 second to 1.6 second a lot things are happening to your set up.
Anyway, my suggestion, use a second backup such as main rope or a cord in addition to your daisy.

Factor one or Factor Two 1 1/2 meter fall? Makes a big difference. In what kind of scenario would a climber take such a fall while setting up an anchor on bolts?

Did he run tests with regular runners and ropes too. Need some control groups.

In real life, a human body in a harness has a lot more give than a 100 KG weight.

Just some perspective.

peace

Karl


the_iceman


Jul 3, 2006, 12:32 AM
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I don't see under any circumstances a daisy chain being fallen on if properly used, they're not to be shock loaded at all. They're not made to catch a fall, only to support weight directly. At least that's my understanding of them.

To the guy who said he uses his Daisy Chain for setting up top-rope anchors. I would strongly recommend not walking, but running far away from that practice. It's a bad idea, and it could get you killed.


jt512


Jul 3, 2006, 9:53 AM
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Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.
Anyone who uses a method different from rockprodigy=Gumby
Arrogant, know-it-alls like rockprodigy=extremely undesirable climbing partners

Whether I'm sport or trad climbing I always have a Metolius PAS girth hitched through my leg and waist tie in point and equipped with a locking biner and always use at least one quickdraw to back it up. I also always have a autoblock backup girth hitched to my leg loop and equipped with a small locking biner. I have enough self esteem to not care what others think of my safety considerations and enough good sense not to climb with the rockprodigy types.

A PAS and an autoblock with lockers don't make sport climbing any safer. They just add weight and bulk, which makes climbing at your limit harder. Thus non-gumby sport climbers don't carry this junk around on their harness.

Jay


desert_bat


Jul 3, 2006, 10:27 AM
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I'm a newbie and even I have done enough searches to know that this topic has been beat to death many times before. But just to add my comments this time around...

When I was just getting into sport climbing I asked the girl behind the counter at my local climbing store if it was more appropriate to get a daisy chain, runners, or just use draws for cleaning sport climbs. She recommended the daisy chain. After using it for a while I found it to be bulky and cumbersome so I boght a couple of runners and beaners and girth hitched them to my harness. I found this to work much better than the stupid daisy chain.

For sport climbing the chains are usually equalized so you don't need to worry about that. I could see some use for the daisy chain in trad and aid climbing, but I don't recommend it for sport climbing, there are much better alternatives. Now I just have to figure out what to do with the thing. Maybe I should use it as gear sling for trad climbing....


aarong


Jul 3, 2006, 11:20 AM
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I had a daisy loop blow one time while hanging from the anchors of a route. Luckily, the next loop caught me and if it hadn't my backup sling or the tied-off bite of lead rope surely would have - that daisy has since been retired. Needless to say it scared me. A sudden jolt like that under hanging body weight is enough to make you pee yourself - a little.

I still use daisy chains from time to time but I make sure, like all other times, that I am always backed up. I prefer to use a girth-hitched 12-24" sewn sling and locking biner and back up with the lead rope with a tied off figure eight or clove hitch on a bite. Always nice to have something dynamic in the system when it comes to catching a falling body.


paganmonkeyboy


Jul 3, 2006, 11:37 AM
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on sport climbs i like to keep my hammer attached to my swami with a short daisy chain...then you can just clip the biners full of pitons to the daisy loops, and not have to fumble too much when you reach the chains...

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