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Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts?
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kalcario


Jul 3, 2006, 12:34 PM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Here's a great technique that hasn't been mentioned. It doesn't require extra gear and the climber (cleaner) is always backed up.

The first one up clips the anchors with 24" runners instead of draws. When the last person cleans the pitch she leaves the last draw in place, unclips her rope and clips in the rope that goes down to the belayer. At the anchors, unclip one of the runners from the rope and clip it to the belay loop of your harness. Then do the same with the next. Now do whatever it is you're going to do with the rope (I prefer to thread a bight of rope through the lowering points, tie a figure 8 and clip that into my belay loop with a locker. Then I yell "TAKE", check to see that the system works and that my belayer actually has me, then untie my knot.) and lower off. Clean the last draw as you go past it.

I like this system because:
- you never go off belay
- you're always into at least two independent anchors
- 24" runners allow you a natural position away from the rock to do you thing.
- the only change is gear is to have the leader clip the anchors with 24" runners instead of draws.
- no need to run daisys

While I'm on the subject, I've seen a couple of habits more and more at the sport crags that have killed people.

#1 - When you clip the anchors at the top and are about to clean them DO NOT call down "off", "off belay" or, the current favorite, "I'm in straight". Unless you're setting up a rappel, telling your belayer that you're off can only result in bad stuff happening. It only tells the belayer that she can take you off and that's killed people.

#2 - When you're ready to lower, regardless of weather you've just cleaned the anchors or clipped them, grab the end of the rope that heads to the belayer. It's a really, really simple back up so if the belayer has spaced you'll still be able to hold yourself. Right after that, look down at her and confirm visually that you're actually on belay and she's ready to lower you. It scares the hell out of me to see climbers get to the top, toss the rope through the hooks or chains and just let go without even a glance down to confirm that they're on belay. Too many people have hit the deck from that move.

Climb safe,
Mal

I like your point about grabbing the other end of the rope and visually confirming you're belayer's got you before letting go - I do this every time. But the stuff about cleaning is a little off - you're not cleaning draws when following sport routes unless you absolutely have to (like if it's too diagonal or overhanging to get them while lowering) because you simply clean the draws on the way down.

Also if the thing is hard enough for her that she's following it, not leading it, the last thing she wants to do is unclip her end and clip the other end into the last draw - you set it up for her that way in advance, if you're worried about it. And for the other end to be close enough to the wall that she could reach out and grab it means the belayer has to be standing in the landing zone of anything the climber might drop or knock off. It's better, if you're belaying, to stay out of the drop zone if you can.

And competent teams don't use verbal commands at belays, they don't say anything because everyone already knows what's going to happen at the belay.

Also a bight of rope won't go through chain links, or anything else that won't accept 2 strands - especially if you've already got your biners on your 2 24" runners in there.

Some good advice, though...you must have a good safety record.


svilnit


Jul 3, 2006, 2:39 PM
Post #52 of 63 (6634 views)
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Anybody ever use these?

http://images.rei.com/media/693968Prd.jpg


phillygoat


Jul 3, 2006, 4:13 PM
Post #53 of 63 (6634 views)
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Anybody ever use these?

http://images.rei.com/media/693968Prd.jpg


Only on my VIII 8a+ M6 W16 proj, yo...


redrocker


Jul 4, 2006, 1:51 PM
Post #54 of 63 (6634 views)
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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[quote="jt512"]
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In reply to:
Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.
Anyone who uses a method different from rockprodigy=Gumby
Arrogant, know-it-alls like rockprodigy=extremely undesirable climbing partners
Whether I'm sport or trad climbing I always have a Metolius PAS girth hitched through my leg and waist tie in point and equipped with a locking biner and always use at least one quickdraw to back it up. I also always have a autoblock backup girth hitched to my leg loop and equipped with a small locking biner. I have enough self esteem to not care what others think of my safety considerations and enough good sense not to climb with the rockprodigy types.

In reply to:
A PAS and an autoblock with lockers don't make sport climbing any safer. They just add weight and bulk, which makes climbing at your limit harder. Thus non-gumby sport climbers don't carry this junk around on their harness.

A PAS with a quickdraw backup is my chosen method of anchoring myself to bolted belays on trad climbs and also for anchoring myself to the chains when cleaning a sport climb. Not necessarily safer than other methods just my choice. The autoblock backup I always use when rappeling whether from a multipitch trad climb or a 3 bolt sport climb. Isn't using a backup when rappeling safer than not? It takes about 20 seconds to rig when it's already girth hitched to my leg loop.
Obviously I don't climb hard enough to notice the impact of the added weight and bulk that this extra gear causes. If that makes me a Gumby in the opinions of others I accept the label but refuse to allow those opinions to make me self conscious.
P.S. Many of my climbing partners make fun of me from time to time for my gumbiness in this regard but ultimately continue to climb with me despite the derision they may be subjected to as a result of their association with such an obvious gumby.


the_iceman


Jul 5, 2006, 12:00 AM
Post #55 of 63 (6634 views)
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Well that's just it. Real climbers don't give a rat's ass about what other people think. They climb for the sake of climbing. The problem with RC.com is that it's full of quite a few posers. ...And not all posers are noobs. The climbers who are worth a shit, climb. And they don't feel themselves so superior that they can't climb with anybody who might have less experience than them. Of course the ones on here who just blow smoke up your ass think that NOBODY has as much expirence or knowledge as them. So they're stuck starting flame wars on web forums. Calling everybody "Gumby" and "N00b", and feeling sorry for themselves that they have nobody to climb with. It's really quite pathetic...


jt512


Jul 5, 2006, 8:36 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.
Anyone who uses a method different from rockprodigy=Gumby
Arrogant, know-it-alls like rockprodigy=extremely undesirable climbing partners
Whether I'm sport or trad climbing I always have a Metolius PAS girth hitched through my leg and waist tie in point and equipped with a locking biner and always use at least one quickdraw to back it up. I also always have a autoblock backup girth hitched to my leg loop and equipped with a small locking biner. I have enough self esteem to not care what others think of my safety considerations and enough good sense not to climb with the rockprodigy types.

A PAS and an autoblock with lockers don't make sport climbing any safer. They just add weight and bulk, which makes climbing at your limit harder. Thus non-gumby sport climbers don't carry this junk around on their harness.

The autoblock backup I always use when rappeling whether from a multipitch trad climb or a 3 bolt sport climb. Isn't using a backup when rappeling safer than not?

Usually. Being lowered by a partner is safer still, especially with a grigri, and it's faster. Gumbies worry about wear on the anchors, rather than considering them to be consumable goods, and using them as intended.

Jay


jt512


Jul 5, 2006, 8:41 AM
Post #57 of 63 (6634 views)
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Of course the ones on here who just blow smoke up your ass think that NOBODY has as much expirence or knowledge as them. So they're stuck starting flame wars on web forums. Calling everybody "Gumby" and "N00b", and feeling sorry for themselves that they have nobody to climb with.

I wonder how they got all that experience with nobody to climb with.

Jay


redrocker


Jul 5, 2006, 9:47 PM
Post #58 of 63 (6634 views)
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.
Anyone who uses a method different from rockprodigy=Gumby
Arrogant, know-it-alls like rockprodigy=extremely undesirable climbing partners
Whether I'm sport or trad climbing I always have a Metolius PAS girth hitched through my leg and waist tie in point and equipped with a locking biner and always use at least one quickdraw to back it up. I also always have a autoblock backup girth hitched to my leg loop and equipped with a small locking biner. I have enough self esteem to not care what others think of my safety considerations and enough good sense not to climb with the rockprodigy types.

A PAS and an autoblock with lockers don't make sport climbing any safer. They just add weight and bulk, which makes climbing at your limit harder. Thus non-gumby sport climbers don't carry this junk around on their harness.

The autoblock backup I always use when rappeling whether from a multipitch trad climb or a 3 bolt sport climb. Isn't using a backup when rappeling safer than not?

Usually. Being lowered by a partner is safer still, especially with a grigri, and it's faster. Gumbies worry about wear on the anchors, rather than considering them to be consumable goods, and using them as intended.

Jay
Jay, for the record no one (save you) mentioned concern about wear on the anchors as a reason for rappeling vs lowering. I lower off sport climbs when lowering makes more sense than rappeling, but there are also times when rappeling allows me to show consideration for others. How bout my belayer needs to take a piss, have a smoke, eat something, sit down and relax before his turn to climb, etc, etc. Anything but be forced to stay on belay while a noob, gumby like your's truly fumbles and flops around trying to clean the route.
No seriously Jay I hear you. What you say makes sense. But that's really not the issue as far as I'm concerned. The point is I've made the decision to use the methods I use for my own reasons, just as you have done. I like the added safety of using an autoblock 100% of the time when I rappel. I enjoy being able to set my belayer free while I clean the route. I feel good about not putting extra wear on the anchor and my rope sure doesn't complain either.
Anyhow, right or wrong I've said enough on this topic so I'll just monitor this thread until it dies out and see what others have to say.

Be safe, have fun, be kind when you can and ruthless when it's called for!

redrocker


jt512


Jul 6, 2006, 11:56 AM
Post #59 of 63 (6634 views)
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Gumbies worry about wear on the anchors, rather than considering them to be consumable goods, and using them as intended.

Jay
Jay, for the record no one (save you) mentioned concern about wear on the anchors as a reason for rappeling vs lowering.

[..]

I feel good about not putting extra wear on the anchor and my rope sure doesn't complain either.

redrocker

Oops.

Jay


the_iceman


Jul 6, 2006, 9:39 PM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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I'm gonna have to agree that rapping is a better option. The attitude that the bolts and chains are expendable is pretty lame. Yeah they wear out eventually, but if we don't have retards prematurely wearing them out, they will last years, and years. As opposed to some areas that get a set of chains worn out in a season or two... By gumbies.

That's not to say I haven't been known to occasionally lower off of them for reasons of time constraints, belayer needing to relax, or whatever. But there are also people who just run their ropes through the chains and dont even use biners when top roping. It's acceptable to occasionally lower off the chains, but don't make it a common practice, and certainly don't just top rope through the chains. Consume your own consumable gear, and try to have as little impact on the permanant gear as reasonably possible.

Also I'm not sure how much wear and tear you'll save on your rope, since either way, you're creating friction on the same surface area of the rope, using either method.


rockprodigy


Jul 10, 2006, 7:24 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Since many did not get it the first time, let me re-phrase:

If you have a daisy chain (or insert Jay's list here) on your harness at a sport crag, you are not sport climbing. You are, in fact trad climbing at a sport crag. People that would trad climb at a sport crag are sport climbing gumbys.

Sport climbing is about pushing your limits...if you're not doing that, you're not sport climbing.

Also, every sport climber worth a damn cares mightily what everyone else thinks...why else would we wear the pink tights?


the_iceman


Jul 11, 2006, 12:25 PM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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If that's the case, why do Trad climbers like clipping bolts so much? Is it because once a crag is developed with sport routes, it will be time for the Trad climbers to move on? Is it not acceptable to still Trad climb a wall, just because it's POSSIBLE to sport climb it? Also, since on some climbs that are poorly bolted, I usually carry a few nuts to protect between badly spaced bolts. But I guess I should just use the route the way it's bolted and risk a 20' grounder...

"Hey, as long as nobody thinks I look silly!"

Like I sad before, If you're really worried about other people's perception of you based on what type of climbing you do, you really don't have any business climbing.

Sad...


potreroed


Jul 11, 2006, 6:50 PM
Post #63 of 63 (6634 views)
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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rockprodigy(??!!) is still wrong. If I choose to use a daisy chain to attach myself while cleaning an anchor at a sport crag that does not mean I'm trad climbing at a sport crag. And it has absolutely nothing to do with pushing one's limits.

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