|
nthusiastj
Jul 5, 2006, 2:50 AM
Post #1 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 3, 2002
Posts: 1994
|
I've heard some horribly bad, and made up stats lately about people being dropped by GriGri's. I'm interested to know what the percentage of poeple have been dropped by autolocking (GriGri) compared to non-autolocking (ATC) devices.
I know most of you (like me) have never been dropped. Pipe up and let me know if you have. I want some actual stats here.
|
|
|
|
|
rock_junkie
Jul 5, 2006, 2:52 AM
Post #2 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2004
Posts: 172
|
Belayer error with a tube device. Fun times. Live and learn (if possible).
|
|
|
|
|
sbaclimber
Jul 5, 2006, 2:53 AM
Post #3 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 3118
|
How about seeing someone else get dropped?
|
|
|
|
|
nthusiastj
Jul 5, 2006, 2:56 AM
Post #4 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 3, 2002
Posts: 1994
|
I'm up for if you've seen someone else dropped. I realize these aren't "real" stats, but I'd like an idea.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Jul 5, 2006, 3:02 AM
Post #5 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
The trouble is that I'm only allowed to vote once. I have personally been dropped by an ATC twice (user error, wasn't hurt)
I've also seen someone drop someone with an ATC one other time.
I have seen someone get dropped by a GriGri once.
I voted one time for ATC, but it would be more accurate if I could vote more than once.
|
|
|
|
|
nthusiastj
Jul 5, 2006, 3:05 AM
Post #6 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 3, 2002
Posts: 1994
|
Yeah, sorry Angry.
|
|
|
|
|
sbaclimber
Jul 5, 2006, 3:17 AM
Post #7 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 3118
|
I was asking because thankfully I have never been dropped myself (or have dropped someone else), but after 12 years of climbing and 5 seasons of instruction I have seen it happen too many times.
I would say, just a rough guess, that I have seen about a half dozen people get dropped while being belayed using a non-autolock device. Most if not all incidents were in gyms and/or involved inexperienced belayers. Some incidents involved people being lowered too quickly, others involved giving slack for a leader at the wrong time or not reeling it back in quick enough.
Gri-gris on the other hand... the wall I instructed at used only gri-gris, and only for toproping, so my observations are hardly unbiased.
Over the period of 5 seasons I saw at least a couple dozen people get dropped (most, thankfully, from only a few feet up). All the incidents came down to one of two errors (or both together), either the belayer let go with their brake hand, or they released the brake fully without taking into consideration what happens when the rope is no longer being held by that brake (not for lack of me stressing it - repeatedly - I might add).
The problem for a beginner belayer and a gri-gri is, when the climber puts their weight on the rope, the belayer doesn't feel it. So they think, "great this isn't hard or dangerous because I don't have to hold the climber", then the pull back on that little handle a bit too far.......... :shock:
Editted for bad grammar
|
|
|
|
|
4togo
Jul 5, 2006, 3:33 AM
Post #8 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2005
Posts: 134
|
Saw somebody dropped in a gym once -- on a grigri. He was lead climbing on an overhanging wall/ceiling, I was too busy watching him fall to see what his belayer was doing :shock: fellow got lucky and landed in the bouldering area -- biggest cushiest floor in the place.
Saw somebody else get dropped -- gym again -- with an ATC so that his entire body didn't touch the ground, but parts of it did.
|
|
|
|
|
boondock_saint
Jul 5, 2006, 4:45 AM
Post #9 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 6, 2005
Posts: 2157
|
does stopping 3 feet off the ground count? then yes, and it was by ATC
|
|
|
|
|
overlord
Jul 5, 2006, 6:07 AM
Post #10 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120
|
youre missing options in the survey for being dropped by both and not being dropped.
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Jul 5, 2006, 6:09 AM
Post #11 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
My first drop was by ATC however the partner was looking at this climber chick, so she was the cause but we put it on ATC
|
|
|
|
|
nthusiastj
Jul 5, 2006, 1:15 PM
Post #12 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 3, 2002
Posts: 1994
|
In reply to: youre missing options in the survey for being dropped by both and not being dropped.
I am interested in one or the other here. I've never been dropped, as I imagine most haven't. I have seen someone dropped by a Cinch in the gym. It was by an experienced climber trying the device out for the first time.
Anyway, the "stat" that started this was someone saying that GriGri's are responsible for 100 times more accidents than any other device on the market. The user couldn't back up his claims at all.
I want to know what the majority of drops you've seen are from. If you've seen (or have been) someone dropped at all.
|
|
|
|
|
overlord
Jul 5, 2006, 1:34 PM
Post #13 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120
|
In reply to: In reply to: youre missing options in the survey for being dropped by both and not being dropped. I am interested in one or the other here. I've never been dropped, as I imagine most haven't. I have seen someone dropped by a Cinch in the gym. It was by an experienced climber trying the device out for the first time. Anyway, the "stat" that started this was someone saying that GriGri's are responsible for 100 times more accidents than any other device on the market. The user couldn't back up his claims at all. I want to know what the majority of drops you've seen are from. If you've seen (or have been) someone dropped at all.
well, statistically, those dropped by both are as important as thos dropped by just one type of device. because if 100 climbers were dropped by both, 3 by grigri alone and 9 by atc (current results), both smaller numbers are pretty insignificant and you can conclude that it doesnt really matter what kind of device you use.
offcourse this would be even more accurate if you took into account how many belayers used each device regularly and if the drops were caused by belayers that were experienced or unexperienced. but that would be kinda pushing the limits of somple phpbb surveys.
|
|
|
|
|
tgreene
Jul 5, 2006, 1:43 PM
Post #14 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2003
Posts: 7267
|
I actually dropped my partner on Saturday (1st time I've dropped anyone), and I was using a B-52.
The instance here, was that he not only outweighs me by 20#, but he fell from 10 feet above the ground, while attempting to pull a roof and clip the 2nd bolt.
Due to the route, I was roughly 10-12 feet off to the side, and was raked over a large rock when he blew off the hold. He hit the ground, but not too hard, I was bleeding from being pulled across jagged rocks.
|
|
|
|
|
alpie
Jul 5, 2006, 2:02 PM
Post #15 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 38
|
Never been Dropped by ATC.
2X with Grigri, once only 8 ft from the deck.
Personally I think Grigri encourage a less attentative belay due to the "auto locking" ... Makes belayers lazy. - plus newbies can have trouble learning to feed securely.
|
|
|
|
|
boondock_saint
Jul 5, 2006, 2:11 PM
Post #16 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 6, 2005
Posts: 2157
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: youre missing options in the survey for being dropped by both and not being dropped. I am interested in one or the other here. I've never been dropped, as I imagine most haven't. I have seen someone dropped by a Cinch in the gym. It was by an experienced climber trying the device out for the first time. Anyway, the "stat" that started this was someone saying that GriGri's are responsible for 100 times more accidents than any other device on the market. The user couldn't back up his claims at all. I want to know what the majority of drops you've seen are from. If you've seen (or have been) someone dropped at all. well, statistically, those dropped by both are as important as thos dropped by just one type of device. because if 100 climbers were dropped by both, 3 by grigri alone and 9 by atc (current results), both smaller numbers are pretty insignificant and you can conclude that it doesnt really matter what kind of device you use. offcourse this would be even more accurate if you took into account how many belayers used each device regularly and if the drops were caused by belayers that were experienced or unexperienced. but that would be kinda pushing the limits of somple phpbb surveys.
plus more people use atc than grigri's because they are so much more affordable ... so that too might sound misleading. I've know like two people who use a grigri, everyone else uses atc's so of course the chance of me being dropped by the ATC are higher since I'm on the other end of a grigri like once a year.
|
|
|
|
|
snothead
Jul 5, 2006, 2:17 PM
Post #17 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 2, 2005
Posts: 44
|
For your "stats" to have any meaning you would also have to figure out the relative frequency of use of grigris vs atcs. In other words, what percentage of belays are grigris used for as opposed to ATCs. For example: if the US has 1million cases of x per year, and Canada only has 100 cases of x per year, you have to figure out the percentage per capita before you can say that one has more than the other.
|
|
|
|
|
nthusiastj
Jul 5, 2006, 2:27 PM
Post #18 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 3, 2002
Posts: 1994
|
As I said before, I realize these aren't real stats. I also can't reasonably account for all variables here.
If you've never been dropped or have seen someone dropped. Don't answer.
If you have, what device was it on, or what was the majority device.
I know probably more than half of us are engineers, but don't get too crazy here.
|
|
|
|
|
overlord
Jul 5, 2006, 2:29 PM
Post #19 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120
|
heres its about 50% grigri, 20% reverso (btw, do you count it as a tube-style like atc or an autoblock?), 15% both tube-style (atc) and fig8. that is offcourse a rough estimate based on how many of each device you see on an 'average' day at the crag.
|
|
|
|
|
nthusiastj
Jul 5, 2006, 4:14 PM
Post #21 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 3, 2002
Posts: 1994
|
In reply to: In reply to: I know probably more than half of us are engineers, but don't get too crazy here. Should I start a poll to expose this false statistic?
It's a proven fact!!! I've seen it with my own eyes. It's an engineer epidemic!!! LOL
|
|
|
|
|
jumpingrock
Jul 5, 2006, 4:19 PM
Post #22 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 5692
|
Dropped by an inexperianced Employee at a gym many years back. ATC was the device in question. My English is getting bad, I need to stop programming :-|
|
|
|
|
|
sonso45
Jul 5, 2006, 4:56 PM
Post #23 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 1, 2002
Posts: 997
|
I was dropped two days ago by a partner (using a reverso) yakking to friends. In my belayer's defense, she doesn't catch me falling too often but I was having trouble at a particular section and when I fell, according to a witness, she played out rope, thinking I was still climbing, and my fall became difficult to arrest. I ended up nicking my left calf, it threw me upside down and I finally stopped 3' short of a ledge, upside down, for a nearly 50 footer which shoulda been a 10 footer. Scary.
|
|
|
|
|
desert_bat
Jul 5, 2006, 5:13 PM
Post #24 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 9
|
I've been dropped with both a gri gri and a tube style device. The gri gri drop was higher and had a worse result for me. I was actually being lowered from leading a climb and just unclipped the last bolt. Unclipping the draw put a lot of slack into the line and somehow the belayer dropped me the remaining ~15ft to the ground. Lucky for me there was a bit of friction in the chains and the gri gri still, but I fell straight down on my back. :(
The other time also occured while being lowered, this time the belayer was using a ATC and her shirt got caught in the device. In an effort to get it out she dropped my the remaining ~10ft. Once again I was lucky for the friction in the system and I actually landed on my feet.
At this point in my climbing carreer, I don't really care for gri gri's but I have several friends who like to use them.
|
|
|
|
|
4gottherope
Jul 5, 2006, 5:21 PM
Post #25 of 29
(2153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 1, 2004
Posts: 20
|
I haven't been droppee either way but I'm not sure that the answer means much. People get dropped when there are errors. Device failure is virtually a non-issue.
No, I don't thing a grigri not locking is a device failure.
I see a lot of people on a grigri who aren't paying attention. They assume that the device will lock and they don't have to do anything. Sorry, I don't want anyone belaying me who is depending on something else to cover for them. It encourages a poor belay and poor belay causes errors.
Confidence is letting your spouse belay. ;)
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
