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wanderinfree
Jul 5, 2006, 2:36 AM
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I'm sure I'm opening Pandora's Box with this one, but another thread discussing Grigri's vs. non-locking belay devices has me curious. How many folks out there have been involved in a belay accident/failure--either grigri or ATC? Tell all. What type of device? What happened? Did someone drop you when lowering on a grigri? Did your belayer lose control of their brake hand on an ATC? How experienced was the belayer on the device?
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sbaclimber
Jul 5, 2006, 2:43 AM
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I have seen belayers f*** up using, gri-gris, atcs, and fig. 8s.
It doesn't matter what type of belay device it is, it is only as good as the belayer using it.
Personally, I think gri-gris have the negative attribute of allowing bad belayers be bad belayers (if the climber doesn't fall when you let go with your break hand, then you are less likely to notice your bad technique)!
On the other hand, I have seen gri-gris stop falling climbers when the inexperienced belayers freak and let go with their break hands.....
Different strokes for different folks, and the proper belay device for the situation.
Oh, and don't be a bad belayer 8^)
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jt512
Jul 5, 2006, 6:51 PM
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In reply to: I'm sure I'm opening Pandora's Box with this one...
More like duplicating Pandora's box.
Jay
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potreroed
Jul 5, 2006, 6:59 PM
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Don't have any direct experience but at El Potrero Chico there have been several instances where a belayer dropped a climber when lowering and let the end of the rope go thru the belay device. This has happened with both gri-gri's and ATC's. Personally, I love my gri-gri and it is always my first choice.
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tradrenn
Jul 6, 2006, 2:03 AM
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It doesn't matter what one belays with, without proper training/instructions one can fuck up anything.
Give me Cinch or Soloist and I think I will fuck this up ( never had one in my hand )
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getdownfromthere
Jul 6, 2006, 2:37 AM
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I'll tell you what-- last night I was lowering someone with a gri-gri and I got my hair caught in the thing. Yes, I should have had my long hair tied back. That was really lame of me. The device swallowed my hair until my head was stuck about 4 inches from the thing. I was happy to have the gri-gri's self-arrest function so that I could use one hand to yank the hair out while the climber made her way back up a couple of feet. Oops. I'll never do that again. So in that way the gri-gri helped me out when I was an idiot.
That being said, I am not a huge fan of the gri-gri because, in climbing gyms, I've seen too many owners/instructors give a half-baked, 10-second lecture on how to operate the thing, then walk away. Most new climbers know that (without a gri-gri) they'd better understand how to belay someone or they won't attempt it. The gri-gri lets anyone take the life of another into his/her hands, often prematurely, as the belayer sees no good reason to really understand the thing. Last night I also saw a guy belaying someone with a gri-gri, but he wasn't even tied into the thing. He didn't have a harness, and used one hand to take up slack while the device was just connected to a floor anchor. The other hand was in his pocket.
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pyrosis
Jul 6, 2006, 2:48 AM
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I've been dropped exactly once, from the anchors of a 30' route in a gym a long time ago. My belayer was belaying for his first time and was using a grigri. The grigri was threaded correctly, the belayer just pulled it wide open and panicked as I hurtled to the ground, pulling the lever even harder in a misguided attempt to make me stop falling. Needless to say, I hit the ground hard. I escaped with a wrenched back. Nothing serious, but I couldn't sleep right for weeks because it hurt when I laid down.
Been caught falling many times over the last 12 years with ATCs, sometimes by inexperienced belayers, some of whom were much smaller than my 195 lbs. Never been dropped with an ATC.
Needless to say I feel more comfortable being belayed on an ATC. The one exception is on long aid climbs where the belayer might fall asleep. This is a good time to use a grigri.
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chikinv10
Jul 6, 2006, 3:56 AM
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Been dropped twice with ATC from 15+ feet in the gym from unintentive belayers including my own relative and also been dropped from 25 feet twice from the top of the gym. It doesnt matter what you're using, someone can and will fuck up with it. im extremely causious about falls now.
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dingus
Jul 6, 2006, 4:29 AM
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Got dropped by a drunk belayer (Jr.) whilst top roping the Original route at Underground City while skipping school (we called it 'laying out').
He was using a Fig. 8. Swore em off at that point.
Was that wrong?
DMT
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renohandjams
Jul 6, 2006, 4:45 AM
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Idiot belay solution:
If you are nervous about your belayer set them up with a GriGri or cinch auto locker (check everything on them). Show them how to pull the rope to take up slack, tell them whatever they do TO NOT TOUCH THE LEVER because if they do you will start falling to the ground and die.
Then once you are at the top of your climb, pull a belay device off your rack and repel yourself down.
In all seriousness I won't climb until I've seen someone lower someone else with a cinch. I can coach them lowering someone else that is close to my weight and see how they do.
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overlord
Jul 6, 2006, 9:52 AM
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i was dropped with a grigri that was used by a belayer that want used to the device; he was used to tube/atc. the thing is, grigri changed hes brake hand (used to be left, grigri kinda forces you to use right) so he braked on the lead end. he got some serious ropeburn, i decked from about 6m and had a nice soft landing with my butt hittin the only patch of dry leaves amid some nasty rocks.
btw, that tought him a lesson and now he is my favourite belayer.
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robbovius
Jul 6, 2006, 11:39 AM
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In reply to: It doesn't matter what one belays with, without proper training/instructions one can f--- up anything. Give me Cinch ...and I think I will f--- this up ( never had one in my hand )
small thread hijack:
I have a Cinch, it's sweet. locks up quicker and more positively than my grigri, is MUCH easier to use for lead belay, and - set up properly - works well as an auto-feeding rope-solo self-belay device. My grigri is pretty much relegated to fixed-line TR self-belay use now.
as far as belay drops, in the 4 years I've been climing seriously, I've only seen one potentially injurious belay-drop (on an ATC in the hands of an inexperienced belayer), and have been uncontrolledly lowered off part of a route (not all the way to the ground, but enough to be scared) by a belayer I didn't know personally, using an ATC.
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slacklinejoe
Jul 6, 2006, 2:09 PM
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Sadly I've witnessed 3 ATC accidents, 1 gri-gri accident and had 1 friend get a bad belay with a figure 8.
Thankfully neither me nor my partners have ever been dropped. Rope burn & big falls have convinced me of the need of either (at a minimum) a higher friction ATC or (preferably) an autolocking device for some sport climbing areas.
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grandledge
Jul 7, 2006, 12:16 AM
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I've seen two GriGri accidents. Many GriGri fubars. One ATC incident. One one person seriously injured out of all this. First GriGri incident was at Grand Ledge, Michigan. Girl just learning to climb became confused and droped her friend/teacher about 15 or 20 feet. he was scared s$%^&*$# but OK. I was droped 17 feet by a guy using an ATC incorrectly and with a sore hand and deficient attitude. Never climbed with him again. The issue there was that you do not let go even if your hand hurts. I got a slightly sore foot and an education. He has no bussiness climbing. His girlfriend was a good climber. Too bad she was stuck with him. Some gyms use GriGris for beginners instead of through instruction hoping the automatic feature will catch the climber. Lots of people get droped in those gyms. I saw one carried out on a streacher. The fact that those gyms are not tall saves people.
GriGris are fine for EXPERIENCED climbers, but not for beginners. And are never good for taking the places of instruction and practice. I have made that argument many time and upset many people including gym employees.
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potreroed
Jul 9, 2006, 9:19 PM
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The gri-gri can be used just fine by southpaws. It's all in setting it up correctly and double checking before starting to climb.
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