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spydermonkey
Aug 29, 2002, 9:19 PM
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As a responsible climber, one needs to have a responsible and smart belayer. Make sure you trust your belayer and know that they can compitently do their job. Try to elimintate any hazard that would distract you or the belayer, like "sunglasses."
Be a smart climber, have fun and be safe.
My two cents.
spyder
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ctrlaltdel
Aug 29, 2002, 10:23 PM
Post #27 of 49
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Throwing down my stupid sunglasses has nothing to do with droping gear! Try getting hit by a pair of sunglasses (at least a lite pair like mine droped from a high place, and compare it with a figure eight or a biner droped from just above your head!
I'm willing to bet if I dropped a penny (probably lighter than your sunglasses) from 30 meters/98 ft and hit the soft spot on the top of your head, you will not be happy with me.
Oh, come on. I've had partners throw stuff -- shirts, sunglasses -- down to me before, and I've never let go with my brake hand to catch them.
I could also pull out my cell phone and have a conversation, look at the guide book, and talk to other people without letting go with my brake hand.
The point I'm trying to make is this sport has a high risk of someone being injured or killed. Good safe habits will minimize those risks. Bad habits has serious results in this sport. Things like relying on the gri-gri to catch. I'm sure in 99.99% of the time it works. I'm sure in 99.99% of the time nothing comes of throwing the sunglass down. But what IF she didn't throw the sunglasses down. Would we be talking about this? Just a thought.
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jt512
Aug 30, 2002, 1:07 AM
Post #28 of 49
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Quote:I'm sure in 99.99% of the time nothing comes of throwing the sunglass down. But what IF she didn't throw the sunglasses down. Would we be talking about this?
Throwing down the sunglasses didn't cause the accident. Asking your belayer to try to catch your sunglasses or an article of clothing is not uncommon. Locally, we sometimes climb above a spring. If I get hot on the route, I'll toss my sweater down and ask my partner to catch it so it doesn't land in the water. Only a totally incompetent belayer would let go with his brake hand to catch something. If the leader in the reported accident was at fault at all, it was because she allowed an incompetent belayer to belay her.
-Jay
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fitz
Aug 30, 2002, 5:26 PM
Post #29 of 49
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JT512, I'm with you on this. Some rules are made for breaking (like writing in English and complete sentences). Belay rules aren't among them. It doesn't matter if it is a rock or sunglasses, or what the climber is shouting, the brake hand does not let go.
Speaking of complete sentences, Fleadawg, I honestly don't buy it. Most experienced climbers I know have learned, the hard way, that death is an obtainable goal. But, giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are, as you say, the Man, I have to agree. If you are bothering to lug a gri-gri (or two, assuming you're using two lines) for hard mixed or ice, dragging the extra weight of a big cam on hard trad, or futzing with the klunky thing on a long alpine route, you don't need my advice.
I certainly can't use yours. At my age, you would have to threaten me at gun point to get me to lug a Gri-gri on an 18 hour car-to-car apline day.
-jjf
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ctrlaltdel
Aug 30, 2002, 8:11 PM
Post #30 of 49
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Throwing down the sunglasses didn't cause the accident.
What?! It was exactly why the accident happened. Why did the belayer let go of the brake hand? To catch the sun glasses. Why is the belayer trying to catch the sun glasses? Because the climber threw it down. In an accident there is a series of events that leads to the unfortunate event. The cause of this particular accident was that the climber threw the sun glass down. It set the events that led up to the fall into motion. Yes, the belayer was inexperienced and let go of the brake hand. Look at any accident and there is some circumstances that contributed to the accident, many times it's inexperience, but that is not the cause of the accident!
What if the circumstances were slightly different. The belayer is experienced and knows not to let go of the brake hand, climber tells belayer to catch sun glasses and tosses it, belayer takes a bad step/trips over a rock while trying to catch the glasses, falls on the brake hand, rope comes loose, climber breaks both legs, belayer has a shattered wrist. Both won't be climbing anytime soon. If that was the story posted what would be your response? Would it be the same? Mine would be. What was the climber doing throwing stuff down?
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drector
Aug 30, 2002, 9:27 PM
Post #31 of 49
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I've sat at the crag and watched many a belayer take their hand off the rope for a moment when they have taken in rope and need to move the brake hand.
The gri gri vs. tube issue is not important for trained climbers. I think that a deeper problem is the proper training of new climbers/belayers in regard to proper technique wqith any device. It scares me to climb with strangers because it is hard to examine their technique while climbing. It is also hard to ask: "Do you take your hand off of the rope for a brief moment when taking in rope?"
Oh, and I always catch the sun glasses with the other hand.
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sugarbaby
Aug 30, 2002, 9:58 PM
Post #32 of 49
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i think grigri's are great for teaching beginners. you tell them never ever to take their hand off the brake, but since they're beginners, it can't hurt to be cautious. that way if they mess up and let go, it can catch them. grigri's aren't made to be brakes, just to kick in in case of emergency.
NEVER LET GO!!!
NEVER LET GO!!!
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jt512
Aug 31, 2002, 1:57 AM
Post #33 of 49
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Quote:Throwing down the sunglasses didn't cause the accident.
What?! It was exactly why the accident happened. Why did the belayer let go of the brake hand? To catch the sun glasses. Why is the belayer trying to catch the sun glasses? Because the climber threw it down. In an accident there is a series of events that leads to the unfortunate event.
By your logic, then, we could equally say that the accident was "caused" by their having gone climbing in the first place, or by the leader having bought the sun glasses. There we go, never buy sunglasses, then you won't be able to wear them on the route, so you won't throw them down, so your shit-for-brains belayer won't let go with his brake hand to catch them.
-Jay
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billcoe_
Aug 31, 2002, 2:54 AM
Post #34 of 49
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Fitz and JT have it together here.
If the climber had let go of the brake hand to swat a mosquito, would the mosquito be to blame?
If the climber had wiped the sweat from his brow, would the heat be blamed?
If the climber had let go to scratch his balls, would jock itch be the cause of the accident?
YOU NEVER NEVER NEVER LET GO WITH YOUR BRAKE HAND. It is the belayers responsibility.
The belayer was at fault. Not the mosquito, not the heat, not joch itch or crabs. Not the sunglasses either.
The belayer.
Bill
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bumblesbounce
Sep 2, 2002, 5:06 PM
Post #35 of 49
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You never take your hand off the brake rope! Two causes of the accdient:
1)The climber - she was part of fault. If she didn't want her sunglasses she should of held on to them of just deal with it. It's natural inctint for anybody to catch something... that is true. But that should not be an excuss
2)The belayer - Should have his/her eyes on the climber. Not the sunglasses being thrown to the ground. Your hand fimly stays on the rope. Because letting going can be fatal and is often fatal. At that time his/her hand should of been at her right/left hip so that the climber didn't fall. And an other thing is. were was the person's other hand. It should of been on the rope.
Fawn
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kmae
Sep 3, 2002, 12:56 AM
Post #36 of 49
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I generally don't like to be harsh, I think the climber's first mistake was to climb with an idiot who would let their brake hand come off the brake. I agree with sportgirl. Short of getting knocked unconscious, that hand is super-glued to the rope. In fact, that it what I use to visualize when I belay -- that my hand is superglued to the brake and can't come off until I hear my leader or second tell me that they are "safe" or "off belay."
Just goes to reinforce my advice to all newbies: know who you are climbing with and make sure they are well trained. And I also agree that it's dumb to throw stuff down. Plan ahead instead or wear a glasses-keeper (Chum) so you can take your glasses off.
This past weekend at Tahoe I saw another newbie's helmet fall off and hit a climber down below. She had apparently put the darm thing on her head and forgotten to clip under her chin. The kid she hit had a small goose-egg. To make matters worse, a few minutes later, a dog walked over next to her belayer and the belayer got totally distracted "oh hi pooch what a nice doggie" and wasn't even listening to her leader, who was trying to ask for more slack because she was trying to clip. It went on for about 15 seconds until I finally said to the belayer - "forget about the stupid dog, pay attention to your climber." Boy, was I glad to get away from them. They are an accident waiting to happen and I hope I'm not around when they get themselves into serious trouble.
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jt512
Sep 3, 2002, 1:23 AM
Post #37 of 49
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Quote:It went on for about 15 seconds until I finally said to the belayer - "forget about the stupid dog, pay attention to your climber."
Good for you! Speak up when you see s--- like that!
-Jay
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ctrlaltdel
Sep 3, 2002, 5:48 PM
Post #38 of 49
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By your logic, then, we could equally say that the accident was "caused" by their having gone climbing in the first place, or by the leader having bought the sun glasses
Ok, by your logic there is no need for accident investigators because the entire blame lies on the person who made the last mistake. For example, a truck carries a load not properly tied down. Load comes loose, car behind it slams on the brakes, the car behind the second car following too closely runs into the second car. The cause and fault of the accident is on the third car because it was following too closely. Everyone knows to leave proper braking distance, right? Airplane runs out of fuel, pilot error. The captin is ultimately responsible for the aircraft and safety of everyone onboard, captin should have check before taking off. Climber kicks down a bee hive to the ground. Swarm of bees attack the belayer, belayer drops the rope. It's belayer's fault.
I'm not saying the accident was solely the fault of the climber throwing down the sun glasses. It was contributory and the climber must bear some of the responsibility. The climber must be aware and willing to accept and minimize the risks in climbing. Just because you are on belay does not alleviate you from this responsibility. Which means no throwing crap down, no matter how insignificant you think it is. Ok, I grow tired of aruging this point with you people. Go ahead, throw stuff down and kick rocks down when you climb, because it'll be the belayer's fault when you are paralyzed from the neck down.
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msecoda
Sep 3, 2002, 6:36 PM
Post #39 of 49
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Drector,
You NEVER, and I mean never let go with your brake hand. I have seen people do it to take in rope but that is the INCORRECT way to take in rope. These people should be corrected and at a minimum don't try to learn from watching them. That is one of the worst habits that a belayer could have and frankly is a dangerous habit.
I would say, Listen, I noticed you take your hand off for a split second when you take in rope" If they get defensive, I would just leave it at that. If they seem interested in what you have to say. Give them some pointers...
I would not let any of these people belay me!!!
[ This Message was edited by: msecoda on 2002-09-03 11:39 ]
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jt512
Sep 3, 2002, 7:46 PM
Post #40 of 49
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Quote:I'm not saying the accident was solely the fault of the climber throwing down the sun glasses. It was contributory and the climber must bear some of the responsibility. The climber must be aware and willing to accept and minimize the risks in climbing. Just because you are on belay does not alleviate you from this responsibility. Which means no throwing crap down, no matter how insignificant you think it is.
Do you actually climb? Do you realize how common it is on a sport climb to throw down a sweater or a pair of sunglasses? We do this all the time. We also throw down rocks -- *gasp* -- yes, rocks. Why? Because that is often the safest thing to do with them. Better to toss down a loose rock in a controlled manner than to leave it for someone to knock down unintentionally.
-Jay
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ctrlaltdel
Sep 3, 2002, 9:17 PM
Post #41 of 49
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Jay. Yes, I actually do climb and in the years I have climbed I have never seen anyone toss anything down intentionally (except rope). As for cleaning the route by tossing rocks in a "controlled" manner. I guess it's a regional thing. I was climbing this weekend where there was loose rocks. I reminded my belayer there was a lot of loose rocks so watch out. I did not toss the rocks over, nor has anybody else that was there before us... those loose rocks have been there for years, and I imagine they will always be there unless you climb there. Alright, can we agree to disagree. We can be friends as long as we don't ever climb together.
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jt512
Sep 4, 2002, 12:46 AM
Post #42 of 49
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Quote:Yes, I actually do climb and in the years I have climbed I have never seen anyone toss anything down intentionally (except rope).
Then you need to get out more. I'm guessing that you only trad climb, and that this "sunglass incident" happened while sport climbing.
Quote:As for cleaning the route by tossing rocks in a "controlled" manner. I guess it's a regional thing. I was climbing this weekend where there was loose rocks. I reminded my belayer there was a lot of loose rocks so watch out. I did not toss the rocks over, nor has anybody else that was there before us...
It's not a regional thing. It sounds like a trad vs. sport thing. You obviously can't be tossing rocks intentionally down a multi-pitch trad route, but sport climbing is different. The routes are ususally single pitch. You can easily see and communicate with your belayer (if you can get the dogs to stop barking) and loose holds must be cleaned in order for the route to be safe for those below. Loose rock on sport routes is always cleaned or reinforced with glue (don't have a heart attack) so that the hold isn't pulled off onto somebody's head.
-Jay
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drector
Sep 4, 2002, 1:02 AM
Post #43 of 49
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msecoda
My post mentioned that I've seen lots of people let go for a moment. I should have followed up with "and they are soon to be dead or cripple."
I was trying to let people know that the brake hand issue is a big problem. I've seen it more than 10 times in the last 2 years of weekend climbing. Someone is teaching people bad habits. Maybe these people learned with a gri gri which allows a person to have a relaxed mental attitude no matter how hard they are taught to always hold the brake hand on the rope.
My climbing partner would belay by switching hands instead of using the "pinch with the left hand while sliding the right brake hand along the rope" method. I had to watch him for a long time before I was sure he never let go. I still warned him that he was developing a bad habit just allowing a brake hand to open up even if he was "attaching" a new brake hand to the rope. His method was great for speed climbing as both arms shared the workload of belaying fast.
I don't climb with him much anymore.
Dave
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fitz
Sep 4, 2002, 4:13 PM
Post #44 of 49
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Ctrlaltdel,
I can't *really* disagree with anyone who selects the computer Vulcan nerve pinch for a handle, but...
About 8 years ago, my partner tried to tiptoe past a loose block. The end result was a cinder block sized chunk of solid granite cracked my collar bone and ankle. I was tied to the anchor, so I knew I couldn't get out of the way, when I saw the block falling towards me, I grabbed the brake line with both hands and twisted my head as best I could for cover.
You don't let go. That was the way I was taught. That is the way it has to be. There are plenty of other climbers who have experienced injuries much worse than mine belaying (a few have even been killed), who also did not let go.
We could argue about rather a climber should distract his/her belayer, and so on. But, the bottom line is that the belayer lacked the focus, training, or whatever, to provide a safe belay.
Belayers should ask themselves, if you aren't going to arrest the line when it counts, what are you there for?
-jjf
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petzl510
Oct 24, 2002, 2:45 PM
Post #45 of 49
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Well i think that your neighbor should be using a GRI-GRI because it would be safer and as long as it is setup properly it will automatically lock. I have used an older belay device many times but when climbing and esspecially leading i feel a lot safer when i am being belayed with a GRI-GRI. Even if i have many diffrent people belaying me I always feel safe because i let them use my GRI-GRI.
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djmicro
Oct 30, 2002, 5:37 AM
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A golden rule for a belayer that drops a climber is that the climber either has to be realy hurt or the belayer must be fast enough to outrun the enraged climber for obvious reasons.
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billcoe_
Oct 30, 2002, 8:02 PM
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DJ: thats way funny!!
Too true:
Bill
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boz84
Nov 3, 2002, 1:44 AM
Post #48 of 49
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Just an FYI:
I was told never to wear sun glasses climbing.
A faceplant into the rock could shatter the lenses, sending plastic shrapnel into your eyes...
Just something to consider, if you dont NEED them, leave them on the ground, no one cares if you look cool.
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sushislayer
Nov 3, 2002, 2:35 AM
Post #49 of 49
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Either that or use ones with Lexan lenses, they won't shatter. Now the frames, that's a different matter altogether.
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