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ctardi
Jul 30, 2006, 6:12 AM
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There has been much discussion about 'Noobs' and those who do not know that they are "Noobs" Has anyone else related this learning model to climbing before? (I think I wrote an aricle on this a while ago...)
A bit of background on it. I'm not sure where it origionated, but it has 4 steps. You obviously start at step one, the unconscious incompetence, and hopefully end up at stage 4, unconscious competence. The two steps in betweenare conscious incompetence, and conscious competence.
Stage 1, Unconscious Incompetence. This is where everyone started at one point. You don't even know that you are incompetent about something. Rock Climbing? There's not much to it, you just climb up a rock! This is a stage where you might have a friend say, or see an ad for a gym in the paper, and say, hey, I'm going to go rock climbing. At this stage you don't know what a belay is, or even that you will have to learn a few things before you go rock climbing. This stage can be fairly un harmful, as most people in this situation will seek knowledge before attemting anything.
Stage 2, Conscious Incmpetence. This is when you've been to the gym, or talked to a climber, and realize that before you munter up your second, you're going to need some training. If continuing with our gym climber...let's call her Ida Donna-Elane Anna Smith(IDEAS). At this point IDEAS has been to the gym, found out about all of their cool programs, and signed up for the bal-ay course next week.
So the week goes by, and Ida Donna-Elane Anna Smith does some reading from her local library on climbing, and takes her belay course, where she learns some of the basics of cilmbing. She does alright for a week of lunch time adventures, but then she starts getting into the next, and most dangerous, stage of her climbing.
Stage 3 - Conscious Competence - The N00b Stage. This is where IDEAS thinks that she knows everything about climbing. She's climbing 5.9's, thinking she knows everything there is about climbing, after all, she is a certified rock climber now! She's correcting other people's setups, ignoring the 'stage 4' climbers, and when nobody's looking, teaching her friend how to belay. This is the classic N00b. Everyone was at this stage at some time, even though most won't admit it. The dangerous part of this is that nobody realizes that they are at the stage. Worse yet, they don't recognize the people past this stage, and ignore the advice of those who have much more experience than them.
Stage 4 - Uncounscious Competence - This is when you do everything without even thinking about it. You also realize that there is more info than you will ever know. This is where the cimbing community needs to work to get all the Stage 3's to.
I'm not saying to look down on stage 3's, but help them out. They will usually get there eventually, but with help it can happen quickly...[/rant]
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neoamhas
Jul 30, 2006, 12:40 PM
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i'm so confused by the prevalent posturing on this site.
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lena_chita
Moderator
Jul 31, 2006, 3:26 PM
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Hmm.. Ctardi, you are not my dad by any chance, are you? B/c my Dad gave me a lecture that was a much expanded version of the OP when he found out that I started climbing :) Truly! Down to pointing out that the concious competence was the most dangerous stage to be in ...
What a funny coincidence...
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epoch
Moderator
Jul 31, 2006, 3:48 PM
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Nice one. :wink:
And true it is. True it is...
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aikibujin
Jul 31, 2006, 4:02 PM
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wouldn't stage 2 Conscious Incmpetence be the noob stage, and stage 3 Conscious Competence be the gumby stage?
I think I'm stuck on stage 0, the arm chair stage.
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angry
Jul 31, 2006, 4:44 PM
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I disagree, you've got it wrong. The cognition and variables presented in safe climbing don't allow your stages to work.
Unconscious Incompetance - n00b, beginner, gumby, and anyone who is not aware of the dangers. This person can be someone who just started or who's been climbing for quite some time and thinks he/she knows it all. Also, at any time a more advanced climber can regress to this stage.
Conscious Incompetance - This is a pretty safe climber. This person knows that he/she does not know how to do it right. This person will seek advice from others because he/she does not trust himself. This is the stage when most learning takes place. It's critical that this person actually finds someone who knows how to do it right.
Conscious Competence - This is where MOST experienced climbers are at. They cognitively recognize the inherent dangers and make a conscious decision on the best way to mitigate those dangers. This person knows what a bad anchor looks like etc. This climber is constantly looking to learn to expand his repertoire of safe climbing tactics.
Unconscious Competence - Does not exist. The moment safety checks and life preserving methods go unconscious, is when an accident happens. I'll go even further to assert that if someone believes themself to be unconsciously competent, he has just regressed to unconsciously incompetant.
If this were about skill and not safety, I would agree with you. Using 4 stages of skill development -precontrol, control, utilization, and proficiency - applied to a climbing technique, you can easily think of the progression to each.
An experienced crack climber switches from one jam to another without thinking. A boulderer throws his balance and tension with as little thought. I would be quite concerned if I ran into a climber that found himself safely off-belay without making the conscious decision to actually do such a thing.
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ctardi
Jul 31, 2006, 5:20 PM
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Angry - I kindly disagree with what you're saying...I'll post a quote of the actual model, then maybe we can come to some agreement of what each stage is.
In reply to: 1 - unconscious incompetence * the person is not aware of the existence or relevance of the skill area * the person is not aware that they have a particular deficiency in the area concerned * the person might deny the relevance or usefulness of the new skill * the person must become conscious of their incompetence before development of the new skill or learning can begin * the aim of the trainee or learner and the trainer or teacher is to move the person into the 'conscious competence' stage, by demonstrating the skill or ability and the benefit that it will bring to the person's effectiveness 2 - conscious incompetence * the person becomes aware of the existence and relevance of the skill * the person is therefore also aware of their deficiency in this area, ideally by attempting or trying to use the skill * the person realises that by improving their skill or ability in this area their effectiveness will improve * ideally the person has a measure of the extent of their deficiency in the relevant skill, and a measure of what level of skill is required for their own competence * the person ideally makes a commitment to learn and practice the new skill, and to move to the 'conscious competence' stage 3 - conscious competence * the person achieves 'conscious competence' in a skill when they can perform it reliably at will * the person will need to concentrate and think in order to perform the skill * the person can perform the skill without assistance * the person will not reliably perform the skill unless thinking about it - the skill is not yet 'second nature' or 'automatic' * the person should be able to demonstrate the skill to another, but is unlikely to be able to teach it well to another person * the person should ideally continue to practise the new skill, and if appropriate commit to becoming 'unconsciously competent' at the new skill * practise is the singlemost effective way to move from stage 3 to 4 4 - unconscious competence * the skill becomes so practised that it enters the unconscious parts of the brain - it becomes 'second nature' * common examples are driving, sports activities, typing, manual dexterity tasks, listening and communicating * it becomes possible for certain skills to be performed while doing something else, for example, knitting while reading a book * the person might now be able to teach others in the skill concerned, although after some time of being unconsciously competent the person might actually have difficulty in explaining exactly how they do it - the skill has become largely instinctual * this arguably gives rise to the need for long-standing unconscious competence to be checked periodically against new standards
The section in bold is what we've had a few threads about lately.
You're saying the n00b is at stage one, but they already know that there are skills involved, and have usually learnt things such as belaying, some basic movement. But as I higlighted, they are not good enough at it to teach it. This would be somebody who is new at it. Around here a N00B is usually a stage two or three.
The Stage two, where you are saying they are a pretty safe climber, know some basics...yea I agree with that.
Stage three is where I think a lot of climbers are at. Especially the ones who, for example when i'm setting up a top rope on two bolts, just used some single runners, just like quick draws. Guy next to me sees it and says "You should be using lockers like I do!" He goes down to climb...I throw my rope, and look at his setup. Yea he's using lockers on everything...but they don't help when they arn't locked.
Stage 4 - Wait...ignore what i've said, I just read the end of your post...
Yes, I agree with what you've said, kindof... I consider myself to be ever moving between stages 3 and 4. But, I consider doing the safety things a stage 4 movement, but you still have to go back to stage 2 or 3 to double check, then tripple check everything. BUT, belaying for example, I don't have to think "Don't let go of the rope, pull rope though, slide hand up, etc.
Its a very debatable thing, everyone will comprehend it differently.
Now, who flung that turd?
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angry
Jul 31, 2006, 6:14 PM
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Ctardi
I don't disagree with the model. It is infact, the same model I use when I design skill based rubrics (I am a PE teacher). I use the 4 previously mentioned terms, PreControl, Control, Utilization, and Proficiency. These fit perfectly into the definition you provided.
What I think you've done wrong is to actually apply the wrong model. It's a good skill based model but doesn't quite fit into the whole safe climbing thing. Just because you don't need to check the manual does not mean it is subconscious.
I'm curious if there are any surgeons out there who would be willing to share their progression models with us. Regardless of how routine a surgery is, the surgeon has to be fully aware of what he's doing and tuned into the differences of each patient. I think that model would be better to apply to safety practices in climbing.
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fmd
Jul 31, 2006, 7:32 PM
Post #10 of 12
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In reply to: Ctardi I don't disagree with the model. It is infact, the same model I use when I design skill based rubrics (I am a PE teacher). I use the 4 previously mentioned terms, PreControl, Control, Utilization, and Proficiency. These fit perfectly into the definition you provided. What I think you've done wrong is to actually apply the wrong model. It's a good skill based model but doesn't quite fit into the whole safe climbing thing. Just because you don't need to check the manual does not mean it is subconscious. I'm curious if there are any surgeons out there who would be willing to share their progression models with us. Regardless of how routine a surgery is, the surgeon has to be fully aware of what he's doing and tuned into the differences of each patient. I think that model would be better to apply to safety practices in climbing.
Oh I get it now....With a screen name of Angry, I always thought that you were married to a large lady that was meaner than a drunken marine, but you are a PE teacher instead....makes sense now...thanks for clearing this up for me
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deleted
Deleted
Jul 31, 2006, 10:53 PM
Post #11 of 12
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[quote:72d3a7079f="ctardi"]There has been much discussion about 'Noobs' and those who do not know that they are "Noobs" Has anyone else related this learning model to climbing before? (I think I wrote an aricle on this a while ago...)
A bit of background on it. I'm not sure where it origionated, but it has 4 steps. You obviously start at step one, the unconscious incompetence, and hopefully end up at stage 4, unconscious competence. The two steps in betweenare conscious incompetence, and conscious competence.
Stage 1, Unconscious Incompetence. This is where everyone started at one point. You don't even know that you are incompetent about something. Rock Climbing? There's not much to it, you just climb up a rock! This is a stage where you might have a friend say, or see an ad for a gym in the paper, and say, hey, I'm going to go rock climbing. At this stage you don't know what a belay is, or even that you will have to learn a few things before you go rock climbing. This stage can be fairly un harmful, as most people in this situation will seek knowledge before attemting anything.
Stage 2, Conscious Incmpetence. This is when you've been to the gym, or talked to a climber, and realize that before you munter up your second, you're going to need some training. If continuing with our gym climber...let's call her Ida Donna-Elane Anna Smith(IDEAS). At this point IDEAS has been to the gym, found out about all of their cool programs, and signed up for the bal-ay course next week.
So the week goes by, and Ida Donna-Elane Anna Smith does some reading from her local library on climbing, and takes her belay course, where she learns some of the basics of cilmbing. She does alright for a week of lunch time adventures, but then she starts getting into the next, and most dangerous, stage of her climbing.
[b:72d3a7079f]Stage 3 - Conscious Competence - The N00b Stage. This is where IDEAS thinks that she knows everything about climbing. She's climbing 5.9's, thinking she knows everything there is about climbing, after all, she is a certified rock climber now! She's correcting other people's setups, ignoring the 'stage 4' climbers, and when nobody's looking, teaching her friend how to belay. This is the classic N00b. Everyone was at this stage at some time, even though most won't admit it. The dangerous part of this is that nobody realizes that they are at the stage. Worse yet, they don't recognize the people past this stage, and ignore the advice of those who have much more experience than them.[/b:72d3a7079f]
Stage 4 - Uncounscious Competence - This is when you do everything without even thinking about it. You also realize that there is more info than you will ever know. [i:72d3a7079f]This is where the cimbing community needs to work to get all the Stage 3's to.[/i:72d3a7079f]
[b:72d3a7079f]I'm not saying to look down on stage 3's, but help them out. They will usually get there eventually, but with help it can happen quickly...[/rant][/quote:72d3a7079f][/b:72d3a7079f]
Not sure where this oringinated from, but it goes something like this..........If I know you are good at what you do, but that you dont care for my welfare, I wont trust you.
If I know that you care for my welfare, but you are incompentent, I still wont trust you..
The message I am trying to say is, if you trust someones advise on protecting yourself on a rock off the internet....well then, your just plum crazy.........
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sidepull
Jul 31, 2006, 11:43 PM
Post #12 of 12
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I'm not sure where this model comes from. I'm curious to know the source and if it has been empirically studied or if it is just theory.
Having read quite a bit of the literature on flow, I would argue that the fourth stage, unconsicuos competence, as described above is more likely to be a momentary state than a stage.
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