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Nothing wrong with bolting cracks
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t-dog
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Aug 1, 2006, 5:53 AM
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hmmm, apart from possibly bringing down the aesthetic value of a crack line, I don't see what harm bolting a crack does. Other than maybe making it cheaper, safer and therefore easier for other people to come climb it.

I realise over-crowding can be a problem in places and many people cherish trad especially because it requires extra knowledge of gear and keeps people out, but this is enherently elitist.

I know this is gonna put many people on this sites panties in a bunch, but that's the way I see it. I'm not going to go out and bolt some cracks, but I have no problem with a) FAs bolting cracks and b) climbing on said bolted cracks.

My panties are in a bunch. If youd allow some bolted crack climbs whats gonna stop more and more bolts, and people over the years forget how to trad, destroying whats makes the climbing experience important.
Every climber is obligated to chop'em and put the hangers to better use elsewhere.

Nope, there will still be areas to go trad climbing, don't worry. There are enough places that are remote and hard to reach, where bolting is not practical/convenient/useful in regards to the traffic it will receive.

When you have people lining up (literally) so that they can each put in their pro to climb the crack and then take it out, I can't help but feel that it's a little pointless.


healyje


Aug 1, 2006, 6:00 AM
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I realise over-crowding can be a problem in places and many people cherish trad especially because it requires extra knowledge of gear and keeps people out, but this is enherently elitist.

Ah, the old "trad climbing is expensive and [lordy!] complicated" elitist argument.

LOL, what? you're going to tell me it's not? Not that I have a problem with it, having spent 2-3 times the price I paid for my car on gear. I don't mind buying gear a single bit, but do I think it should be necessary to force people who want to learn new climbing skills/moves to buy trad gear, I don't think so.

The very essense of the trade off rock to turn it into just another risk-free suburban entertainment option. As you suggest - man up - or stay off the routes.

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No, actually it's about the rock, not the climbers - vestigial LNT and all that prehistoric thought as it were - as opposed to "modern" thinking that focuses on simply providing another fine entertainment product to risk-averse, entitlement-challenged suburban consumers.

LOL, cause piton scars are natural? Repetitive gear placements that damage the rock are not a problem? A 4 foot lichen-free swatch of rock going up either side of a crack is natural? Give me a break. If you really wanted to be LNT, you would stay at home.

No one is using pitons as anything but fixed gear these days outside of a very few select aid routes. As for lichen or moss or anything else growing it's a matter of transgressing as gently as possible with the least impact - not getting the snow shovels out.

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And it's not about entitlement, it's about sharing what I enjoy with other people. Personally, what I enjoy is climbing.

Actually when entertaining you comes at the expense of rock simply so you can duck the committment, skills, and expense necessary to climb routes as they are then it is about entitlement and trashing the rock simply so you can "share" without manning up as you would say.


the_iceman


Aug 1, 2006, 6:06 AM
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So now bolting "trashes" rock? Piton scars are okay as long you're Aid climbing? I'll second the notion that if you're really that concerned about the rock, you should just stay home. Or not, since building your house ruined some trees, and rocks, and possibly an illegal immigrant or two...


healyje


Aug 1, 2006, 6:07 AM
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Nope, there will still be areas to go trad climbing, don't worry. There are enough places that are remote and hard to reach, where bolting is not practical/convenient/useful in regards to the traffic it will receive.

If this isn't a troll it's a viewpoint that is beyond impaired regardless of how many of your friends share it...

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When you have people lining up (literally) so that they can each put in their pro to climb the crack and then take it out, I can't help but feel that it's a little pointless.

Well, I was thinking a statement couldn't get much lamer than your first statement quoted above, but then this gem pops up. This is such a perverse view of "climbing" as to require quotes. Kid, you're really are operating without a GPS for the first time here I see and a compass is going to be totally lost on you. For someone with a profile statement like yours, your context for what climbing "is" is pretty damn warped, though sadly probably not all that uncommon these days....


valeberga


Aug 1, 2006, 6:07 AM
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Leave no trace. It's that simple. Minimize your impact. The exact logic you use to justify bolting, would justify another to do whatever they want to the rock, just because they feel like it. Is that hold too sharp? go ahead file it down. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a foothold right here? let's just make one.

A rack is lighter than a bolting rig, and reusable. But I guess if you never plan on climbing anywhere besides a jungle gym set up for you by someone else, then you don't need to bother learning how to actually climb something naturally, independently.


the_iceman


Aug 1, 2006, 6:09 AM
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Leave no trace. It's that simple. Minimize your impact. The exact logic you use to justify bolting, would justify another to do whatever they want to the rock, just because they feel like it. Is that hold too sharp? go ahead file it down. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a foothold right here? let's just make one.

Right, because you should leave that rock quarry exactly the way God made it.


valeberga


Aug 1, 2006, 6:30 AM
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The quarry is practice, jackass. You gotta take off the training wheels sometime, if you're ever going to learn how to ride for real...


the_iceman


Aug 1, 2006, 6:31 AM
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You don't sport climb big walls, so that's not the issue.


t-dog
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Aug 1, 2006, 6:39 AM
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The very essense of the trade off rock to turn it into just another risk-free suburban entertainment option. As you suggest - man up - or stay off the routes.

Not quite sure where I suggested to "man up" as you say, but whatever. It seems that some people like the "manning up" aspect (or mental aspect) of trad climbing, but to push it to a "man up at the cash register" I think is a little pointless/stupid.

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This is such a perverse view of "climbing" as to require quotes. Kid, you're really are operating without a GPS for the first time here I see and a compass is going to be totally lost on you. For someone with a profile statement like yours, your context for what climbing "is" is pretty damn warped, though sadly probably not all that uncommon these days....

LOL, having never used a GPS to go climbing before, I find your statement quite hilarious! So tell me, what is my context of what climbing is? Don't you just love the internet where random people think they know all about you?


healyje


Aug 1, 2006, 6:49 AM
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LOL, having never used a GPS to go climbing before, I find your statement quite hilarious! So tell me, what is my context of what climbing is? Don't you just love the internet where random people think they know all about you?

It's your profile, not mine, but for someone that claims to like trad climbing you appear to have absolutely no idea what it's about...


the_iceman


Aug 1, 2006, 6:54 AM
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It's about climbing using cams, nuts, hexes, etc. to protect your ass against a fall while you're climbing on a rock.

The reasons for doing it? There are about as many reasons are there are climbers. So don't try and dictate "acceptable" reasons for doing it.


phang_nga


Aug 1, 2006, 8:16 AM
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Oooo, I detect a cat fight :lol: the manhood challenge is on now.

So what can we purists to with our new-found bolt hangers?


edl


Aug 1, 2006, 8:18 AM
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Littering doesn't damadge the environment either. I mean, in a couple of million years it will have all disintegrated and the earth will be back to normal, right? Nothing wrong with littering. It allows more people to keep their cars clean, save energy from taking out the trash, etc. It's more convenient and fun for everyone. Damn, if only everyone knew how fun it was to throw some trash against a sign when blasting down the highway. We should all just litter. Fuck those elitist bastards who say we should have to fork out the money for things like trash cans and disposal services, we obviously don't need them. Personally I am poor, so I don't see the point in spending my money on things like trash cans or having my tax dollars wasted on landfills and disposal services when I don't need them. Littering is so fun, and I want to share this passion with everyone! People only use trash cans to be hardcore; look, I take out my trash so I am not a lazy pantywaste like the rest of you. If I had a trash can, that's why I would have it. And come on, a little litter here or there wouldn't encourage anyone else to litter, would it?

Seriously though, the bolt as little as possible ethic may have started out mostly as an elitist perspective, but it has evolved into a conservationist ethic. People don't like bolted cracks for many reasons, the most valid of which I think is the visual impace/LNT doctrine. It's about respecting the land enough that you impact it as little as possible, saving it for future generations. Thats not to say that all bolts are inherently evil, I personally think a tastefully bolted and visually appealing line is a wonderful addition to any crag, and there are many times when a bolted anchor is certainly the best option. Flame on!


phang_nga


Aug 1, 2006, 8:25 AM
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Littering doesn't damadge the environment either. I mean, in a couple of million years it will have all disintegrated and the earth will be back to normal, right? Nothing wrong with littering. It allows more people to keep their cars clean, save energy from taking out the trash, etc. It's more convenient and fun for everyone. Damn, if only everyone knew how fun it was to throw some trash against a sign when blasting down the highway. We should all just litter. f--- those elitist bastards who say we should have to fork out the money for things like trash cans and disposal services, we obviously don't need them. Personally I am poor, so I don't see the point in spending my money on things like trash cans or having my tax dollars wasted on landfills and disposal services when I don't need them. Littering is so fun, and I want to share this passion with everyone! People only use trash cans to be hardcore; look, I take out my trash so I am not a lazy pantywaste like the rest of you. If I had a trash can, that's why I would have it. And come on, a little litter here or there wouldn't encourage anyone else to litter, would it?

Seriously though, the bolt as little as possible ethic may have started out mostly as an elitist perspective, but it has evolved into a conservationist ethic. People don't like bolted cracks for many reasons, the most valid of which I think is the visual impace/LNT doctrine. It's about respecting the land enough that you impact it as little as possible, saving it for future generations. Thats not to say that all bolts are inherently evil, I personally think a tastefully bolted and visually appealing line is a wonderful addition to any crag, and there are many times when a bolted anchor is certainly the best option. Flame on!

Mr. Bush, is that you?


healyje


Aug 1, 2006, 9:49 AM
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It's about climbing using cams, nuts, hexes, etc. to protect your ass against a fall while you're climbing on a rock.

The reasons for doing it? There are about as many reasons are there are climbers. So don't try and dictate "acceptable" reasons for doing it.

Another person of more words than experience - seems to be about par for the course in this thread. I didn't tell him what it's about - I said he's clearly displaying he has no idea what it's about. Now it's looking like the mechanics are about the extent of your grasp as well.


rhythm164


Aug 1, 2006, 12:50 PM
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There's nothing wrong with bolting cracks, IF you're a big sissy.


so you calling crack climbers sissy

If you need to bolt a perfectly good gear lead in order to climb it, then yes, you're a sissy. And i believe the word I used was pussy, you're a big pussy. Here's an idea majid, pack up your bolt kit and head to Indian Creek, see what kind of reception you recieve.


Partner j_ung


Aug 1, 2006, 12:51 PM
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Just to summarize: My opinion is the correct one. No... mine is.

Pffft! Acceptable ethics are determined by local communities no matter how much anybody wants it to be otherwise. End of story.


johnny_jibba


Aug 1, 2006, 12:54 PM
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some traddies can be oh so righteous...i'm not for bolting cracks, i think variety in climbing is cool, but its such a purist s--- mentality, most of them s--- on boudlering which is "purer" and has less impact...

Bouldering is one of the most, if not the most, high impact styles of climbing. I mean, just take a look around a popular bouldering area and you will see how everything is trampled by the crowds and their crash pads.

Regarding bolting cracks... I guess if you can find an unclimbed crack in a non-trad developed area, then go for it. However, any bolts added to a previously climbed crack without the permission of the FA's should be chopped ASAP. IMO, the only time it's acceptable to add bolts to a climb previously ascended without them is with the permission of the FA's, or because of environmental issues (reduce impact on a tree, etc.).


Partner j_ung


Aug 1, 2006, 12:55 PM
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There's nothing wrong with bolting cracks, IF you're a big sissy.


so you calling crack climbers sissy

If you need to bolt a perfectly good gear lead in order to climb it, then yes, you're a sissy. And i believe the word I used was sissy, you're a big sissy. Here's an idea majid, pack up your bolt kit and head to Indian Creek, see what kind of reception you recieve.

The auto word filter turns the P-word into the S-word in all quotes, even if you have yours tuned as low as it goes. Even though you're seeing the S-word, they both likely wrote the P-word.


rhythm164


Aug 1, 2006, 1:09 PM
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There's nothing wrong with bolting cracks, IF you're a big sissy.


so you calling crack climbers sissy

If you need to bolt a perfectly good gear lead in order to climb it, then yes, you're a sissy. And i believe the word I used was sissy, you're a big sissy. Here's an idea majid, pack up your bolt kit and head to Indian Creek, see what kind of reception you recieve.

The auto word filter turns the P-word into the S-word in all quotes, even if you have yours tuned as low as it goes. Even though you're seeing the S-word, they both likely wrote the P-word.

Stupid filters, always changing the P-word to the S-word reorganizing it so it's the Z-word, when in actuality I meant to write the B-word in the first place, but it's all moot now because it comes out German when it was supposed to be Spanish. Damn, I for one cannot wait for the new RC.com!!! P-words for everyone! :lol:

Whew...sorry about that, we now return to our regularly schedualed ethics debate....


begood77


Aug 1, 2006, 1:43 PM
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This is an argument that seems to keep coming up. Climbing in my opinion is about getting out and enjoying your self, pushing you self, and hopefully doing it relatively safely. I live in New England where we are familiar with the bolt wars. It seems to me if there is a climb you want to do that can only be protected by bolts, bolt it. If the climb can be protected by trad then there is no reason to bolt it. We don't have to bolt the world.

The other thing I don't understand is the stigma against top roping. Most people seem to think if you are not leading you are not climbing. This seems to be the elitist attitude to me. If you have access to the top of the crag throw some bolts for toprope/repel anchors so you don't destroy the trees and enjoy the climb.

So basically I think you should bolt where they is no other way to protect. If you can protect the climb using gear then do that. Enjoy the climb, be safe, and it is not all about the rating. Let the insults begin.


mrcoolshoes1105


Aug 1, 2006, 2:17 PM
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hmmm, apart from possibly bringing down the aesthetic value of a crack line, I don't see what harm bolting a crack does. Other than maybe making it cheaper, safer and therefore easier for other people to come climb it.

I realise over-crowding can be a problem in places and many people cherish trad especially because it requires extra knowledge of gear and keeps people out, but this is enherently elitist.

I know this is gonna put many people on this sites panties in a bunch, but that's the way I see it. I'm not going to go out and bolt some cracks, but I have no problem with a) FAs bolting cracks and b) climbing on said bolted cracks.

My panties are in a bunch. If youd allow some bolted crack climbs whats gonna stop more and more bolts, and people over the years forget how to trad, destroying whats makes the climbing experience important.
Every climber is obligated to chop'em and put the hangers to better use elsewhere.

Whats going to stop more bolts? Hmm, maybe if "obligated climbers" stopped chopping bolt after bolt, then more and more bolts wouldn't have to be drilled to replace the now useless manmade scar on the rock you have just created. You're part of the problem, not the solution.


dingus


Aug 1, 2006, 4:41 PM
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Let the insults begin.

Nah, your opinions seem garden variety to me. We save the insults for the serious opposition. You seem too.. agreeable. Where's the fun in slagging a nice guy? Now be an asshole and we'll let fly (cause shit is attracted to assholes of course!).

DMT


caughtinside


Aug 1, 2006, 4:42 PM
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For the last time, don't bring your dog to the crag!!!!


schveety


Aug 1, 2006, 4:44 PM
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Golly gee, this argument is really going to solve something.... Hah, more like it's going to give everybody higher blood pressure!!

My simple answer - (partly in jest) - If I can't trad climb your sport routes, than I don't want you sport climbing my trad routes !!!!! So there :roll:

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