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cellardoor
Jul 27, 2006, 7:31 PM
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Ok, so i recently did my first couple of hanging belays. Now, when leading from them, all i could think about was putting a straight factor 2 right on the anchor. I know we're just supposed to get that first piece in asap but is there anything else that could be done or is it just don't fall until you get more stuff in? That makes the first piece or two alittle nerve-racking to me.
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112
Jul 27, 2006, 7:36 PM
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The belayer could payout a sh*t load of slack thus reducing the Fall Factor! :lol:
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nthusiastj
Jul 27, 2006, 8:29 PM
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I have, and I've seen people clip a piece of the anchor. It puts more stress on 1 piece of your anchor if you fall, but takes away your factor 2.
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cracklover
Jul 27, 2006, 8:31 PM
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The common response to this feeling of dread is to clip a draw into the highest piece on the anchor and use that as your first piece. This is a mistake. The correct answer is to not fall until you get a couple good pieces in.
If you have a power-point, or something like it, you can use that as your first piece, too. If it creates rope drag or makes the rope all curly, have your belayer unclip it after you get a few good pieces in.
GO
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qtm
Jul 27, 2006, 8:34 PM
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In reply to: Ok, so i recently did my first couple of hanging belays. Now, when leading from them, all i could think about was putting a straight factor 2 right on the anchor. I know we're just supposed to get that first piece in asap but is there anything else that could be done or is it just don't fall until you get more stuff in? That makes the first piece or two alittle nerve-racking to me.
There was a thread not too long ago about clipping one piece of the anchor as your first piece.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...iewtopic.php?t=99754
There's a lot of discussion in there but a good note (as usual) from RGOLD. Also note that a later thread reveals that cordalettes do not really equalize and puts most of the load on the shortest leg, so clipping the powerpoint might be the same as clipping a single piece of the anchor.
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vegastradguy
Jul 27, 2006, 9:47 PM
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i've been known to also put the first piece in off the anchor if i can slot something above my anchor while i'm finishing up my set up. (this often also ends up being the redirect piece for my belay)
other than that, dont fall! :)
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the_pirate
Jul 27, 2006, 10:16 PM
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from a different thread:
In reply to: instead of stopping at the belay anchor, climb past it and get your first piece for the next pitch in while still on belay. then climb back down to the anchor and bring your partner up. |
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cracklover
Jul 28, 2006, 12:46 AM
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In reply to: from a different thread: In reply to: instead of stopping at the belay anchor, climb past it and get your first piece for the next pitch in while still on belay. then climb back down to the anchor and bring your partner up.
What if you're not leading the next pitch? How do you get your partner's rope up there? And don't tell me you clip it into that piece, pull all the rope through, and redirect them up off that one piece. If they hang and the single piece blows, they're taking a *big* fall directly onto your harness (and by the way, your brake hand is now locking them off in the wrong direction).
GO
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gunksgoer
Jul 28, 2006, 12:55 AM
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Clip a locker to the shelf and use that as your first piece of pro. It will reduce the fall factor a little bit (were you to fall) till you get a piece in, and it eliminates a shockload on one single piece of the anchor. Once you are higher on the pitch your belayer can unclip the biner on the shelf if ropedrag is an issue.
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the_pirate
Jul 28, 2006, 1:53 AM
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In reply to: What if you're not leading the next pitch? How do you get your partner's rope up there? And don't tell me you clip it into that piece, pull all the rope through, and redirect them up off that one piece. If they hang and the single piece blows, they're taking a *big* fall directly onto your harness (and by the way, your brake hand is now locking them off in the wrong direction).
no redirecting.
climb past the anchor to get the next piece in. either downclimb or lower back to the anchor. the rope now runs from your partner - up the length of the pitch - past the anchor to the next piece - back down to the anchor. you tie/clip into the anchor. you grab the rope in front of you and tie an 8 on a bight. clip that to the anchor.
now the rope is tied to the anchor and runs down the pitch to your partner. the end of the rope that runs from the anchor to the first piece, next pitch can essentially be ignored at the moment. bring your partner up as you normally would. you are belaying your partner either off the anchor or off your harness off the anchor, depending on your preference.
your partner reaches the anchor and ties in. you are both now attached to the anchor. if you are also leading the next pitch then your partner undoes the 8 on a bight and you are all set to go. if you are swapping leads you untie the 8 on a bight and then yes, you'll have to pull the length of the rope through before your partner can go. somewhat of a pain in the ass and you wouldn't do it all the time, but worth it if you are really concerned about a whipper straight off the belay.
is that clearer? i'm not sure what you mean by brake hand locking off in the wrong direction.
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piton
Jul 28, 2006, 2:12 AM
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use a screamer/ air voyager
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tradman
Jul 28, 2006, 11:35 AM
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I don't know what you guys are climbing, but I generally have to take whatever placements I can get!
The agony of deciding whether to place the first piece of the next pitch or not is not going to be a problem if that first placement is 10 meters up the pitch past moves you can't reverse!
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ajkclay
Jul 28, 2006, 1:50 PM
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In reply to: The belayer could payout a sh*t load of slack thus reducing the Fall Factor! :lol:
:lol:
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cellardoor
Jul 28, 2006, 1:54 PM
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In reply to: The agony of deciding whether to place the first piece of the next pitch or not is not going to be a problem if that first placement is 10 meters up the pitch past moves you can't reverse!
yeah, i'm not climbing that hard of trad quite yet. so far only g and pg for me.
Thanks guys for the responses. I kind of like the_pirates' idea but i'll have to think about it more. I guess in large part it does come down to don't fall right off the belay, it won't be fun.
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pastprime
Jul 28, 2006, 4:05 PM
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I'm not understanding pirate's saying you have to pull all the rope through if you are swapping leads, so I'll just try to explain what I often do. Maybe we are saying the same thing.
Leader gets to belay ledge/spot, and continues on to place one good piece as soon as possible. I say continues on, but usually the placement is just a few feet, or even inches, away. Often this piece can be placed from the belay point, but somewhat higher than the anchors.
Leader moves to belay spot, and sets up the anchor.
Leader brings up the second, using the highest piece from the last pitch as a redirect. This also lowers the force a bit on the leader if he/she has to hold the second while cleaning, etc.
Second cleans all of the pitch except this last, highest piece. Rope is left clipped into this high piece. When second arrives at the belay, gear is swapped, and second continues on as leader of the next pitch. What was the last piece on the previous pitch is now the first piece of the next pitch.
If you aren't going to swap leads, just unclip the second's rope from going through this piece , and clip in the leader's rope before swapping belays. You can even clip the leader's rope into the piece with a second biner before unclipping the seconds rope, if you want to. In my experience, the two of you are usually close enough together that this isn't a problem. This likely is not a crux move, and with all the anchors and pieces to hang on to nearby, there is no reason to be falling while doing this, and it only takes a few seconds.
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csproul
Jul 28, 2006, 4:16 PM
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I have to caution about using a single higher piece above the belay to redirect to the second. This is not a practice I like to use and if you do, make sure it is BOMBER. I have had a second fall and pull that single redirected piece and then all the slack fall directly on the anchor (or belayer).
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jgorris
Jul 28, 2006, 5:55 PM
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In the situation described, the best you can ever have is:
(1) an absolutely bomb-proof anchor
(2) which is never subjected to the direct load of a fall
Judgement is required to manage the risk/consequences where in real-life,
less than those optimal conditions are the norm rather than the exception.
In my view, for obvious reasons, priority must be to maximize anchor integrity.
For me, that translates to clipping the anchor only with a load-limiting draw if
judgement dictates that there is a risk of fall with a high load potential before
I get my first point of protection. I aways carry 1 screamer (or equivalent) on
trad climbs for that purpose.
Thats just me, your mileage may vary.
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pastprime
Jul 28, 2006, 6:11 PM
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I would suggest that if the second pulled the redirect piece in what is basically a top rope situation, where the piece isn't loaded much more than about twice body weight, that piece was pretty manky; and this is a situation where iffy is often not better than nothing. Depends on what might be hit in the possible increased fall distance. Most of the time it is pretty easy to know whether or not a piece is reliable; if it isn't, you have a problem that needs to be worked on before you get back into leading.
It should be mentioned that, because of the force multiplication involved, whether or not a redirect off of the anchor itself is a good idea depends on the reliability of the anchor. If the anchor is bomber, a redirect off of it is fine, and probably a good thing. If the anchor is questionable, you are better off without adding to the force on it, and getting the best stance possible, and another piece in a soon as possible. If you are uncomfortable making these kinds of judgment calls without a rule to tell you what to do, maybe trad isn't your game yet.
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csproul
Jul 28, 2006, 6:28 PM
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In reply to: I would suggest that if the second pulled the redirect piece in what is basically a top rope situation, where the piece isn't loaded much more than about twice body weight, that piece was pretty manky; and this is a situation where iffy is often not better than nothing. Depends on what might be hit in the possible increased fall distance. Most of the time it is pretty easy to know whether or not a piece is reliable; if it isn't, you have a problem that needs to be worked on before you get back into leading. It should be mentioned that, because of the force multiplication involved, whether or not a redirect off of the anchor itself is a good idea depends on the reliability of the anchor. If the anchor is bomber, a redirect off of it is fine, and probably a good thing. If the anchor is questionable, you are better off without adding to the force on it, and getting the best stance possible, and another piece in a soon as possible. If you are uncomfortable making these kinds of judgment calls without a rule to tell you what to do, maybe trad isn't your game yet.
Yup, I'll agree with you 100%. This was a mistake that I made over 12 years ago, and to this day I remember it very vividly. So thanks for the advice, but I never "got back into leading" since I never stopped, and trad has been my "game" for the better part of 15 years. But since this is a thread that is somewhat instructional, I don't doubt that someone has and will make the same mistake, and I thought I'd share one that I have made. All in all I still think that there are few situations where redirecting off a single piece offers significant advantages. And you are correct to say that it is important to know when it is advantageous and when it is safe to do so. That goes for redirecting off the anchor as well.
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mdavid01
Jul 28, 2006, 6:40 PM
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I've gotten into the habit of placing a screamer on the first couple pieces after leaving belay stations. I think it's a good habit.
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cracklover
Jul 28, 2006, 8:26 PM
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In reply to: I would suggest that if the second pulled the redirect piece in what is basically a top rope situation, where the piece isn't loaded much more than about twice body weight, that piece was pretty manky; and this is a situation where iffy is often not better than nothing. Depends on what might be hit in the possible increased fall distance. Most of the time it is pretty easy to know whether or not a piece is reliable; if it isn't, you have a problem that needs to be worked on before you get back into leading.
Fair enough. But I'd say that your suggesting is basically, most of the time, a really bad one, for exactly the reasons I explained to the_pirate when I thought he was doing what it turns out you're doing.
First of all, the force on the piece would easily get above twice body-weight. You have a falling second, who on their own could generate twice body-weight, plus 2/3 of that force from your side of the rope. Sure, a good piece won't rip out from this kind of force. But what exactly are we betting on here? What if it does?
If the piece is as little as three or four feet above your head, you're subjecting the second to a leader fall of twelve to fifteen feet plus rope stretch (which could also be substantial, since they're toproping) if that piece pops.
So what does it matter what the consequences are, if you're sure the piece is good?
The vast majority of the time, the pieces I think are good, are good, but I've seen pieces that I thought were at least okay rip out under the kind of forces we're talking about. I would absolutely hate to subject my second to a potential 15-20 foot fall for this.
That, to my mind, is adding an absoultely unreasonable element of danger that does not need to be there unless there is some exceptional reason for it.
How many factor two falls have y'all caught? None? Then why bother building a complex anchor, right? Isn't one "bomber" piece good enough?
GO
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pastprime
Jul 28, 2006, 10:27 PM
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Cracklover, you and I are visualizing this differently, somehow.
If the the redirect/upper piece is 4 feet above the belayer, and pulls, that means the second falls 8 feet instead of 0, plus whatever rope stretch is added in. The rope stretch on that 8 feet of additional rope under body weight alone isn't going to be more than another foot, and that would be on a pretty stretchy rope.
When I actually do this, and I sometimes do, I usually don't have the piece in question very high at all, and I only do it if I consider the upper piece to be quite solid. More likely to do it if I want to keep the rope over to one side for some reason, or if I expect the 2nd to be hanging a bit.
I like to have, when I can, the belay a bit to the side of the expected line of climb, so if the leader does come off he's less likely to become the belayers new hat. Because of this, my redirect is commonly about even with the belay, or not much above, and the extra length of fall if the piece did pull, which I would be considerably embarrassed to see under a less than twice body weight situation such as this (piece at the side, not above); would not be much at all.
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cracklover
Jul 31, 2006, 2:31 AM
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Everything I said in my post is accurate so far as I can see. What do you disagree with?
A piece 4 feet above your harness could easily be reached from the belay ledge when the leader starts the next pitch. So setting this piece so low is pointless.
Do what you want with your partners, Pastprime, but if we ever climb together, don't redirect me off a single piece for such little reason.
GO
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pastprime
Aug 1, 2006, 5:14 PM
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Cracklover, the part of your post that I didn't understand was saying that a piece 3 or 4 feet above the belayer would increase the fall distance 12 or 15 feet, plus rope stretch, if it pulled.
The origional post was about using a redirect, so I gave my thoughts on that matter. I certainly did not intend it as a sales pitch, if it came across that way. This is one of those things where very competent people might make entirely different choices, and I am happy either way.
If we were ever to climb together, and I've never read anything you've posted that would make me think that would be a bad idea, I promise not to place a piece above the belay point.
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