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off_route
Aug 11, 2006, 7:57 PM
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So I was leading some easy sport yesterday (don't tell my trad buddies) and at each bolt I came to I had the same problem. I would clip, decide it looked like a back clip, twist it around, find the same problem and then go back. If the bolts are away from the mid-line of the route you put the gates away from the mid-line right? On this route the bolts followed a near perfect straight line up the route and I wandered from side to side a little. Does anyone have any quick tricks to minimize the chance of back clipping without doing vector calculus calculations on a pumpy ledge? Should I even care? Do back clips really happen in a fall often enough for it to matter? Should I just go to all screw gates? :D Off_Route
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freeskicolorado
Aug 11, 2006, 8:10 PM
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Yes. 1) Learn what a back clip looks like. 2) Pay attention. Clipping bolts correctly is not rocket science. I don't mean to be an ass, but if you can't easily identify a back clip, lead climbing is probably not a good idea for you.
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jt512
Aug 11, 2006, 8:19 PM
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In reply to: Yes. 1) Learn what a back clip looks like. 2) Pay attention. Clipping bolts correctly is not rocket science. I don't mean to be an ass, but if you can't easily identify a back clip, lead climbing is probably not a good idea for you. I think, first, he needs to learn what backclipping is.
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dingus
Aug 11, 2006, 8:42 PM
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Friend of mine has been climbing 19 years. He's solid, a good climber. That fucker cannot clip a draw correctly to save his ass. Its funny! The harder he tries the worse he makes it. He's been teaching someone else to climb and now THAT fucker can't clip either. Blows me away and I truly don't get it. I think he lacks some spatial geomotry circuitry I and others take for granted. Its like those who can't smell (a blessing when around me)... no matter how you splain it, they will never ever understand what an orange smells like. So maybe its genetic. DMT
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boombewm
Aug 11, 2006, 9:24 PM
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I know a guy like that too dingus, guess it could happen to anyone. My trick is i know which way my biners sit on my draws. As in, if you take the sling and lay it on a table, take all the twists out of it, both the gates would be facing to the left or both facing to the right. Thats about it really, you may just have to slow down a bit and get it right. I know it's hard to do sometimes, but it's about safety. If you blow it and take the whipper though, i'll think your cool though.
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krusher4
Aug 11, 2006, 9:41 PM
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Don't climb routes with bolts 2 feet apart. That's where I would start?
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off_route
Aug 11, 2006, 9:57 PM
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In reply to: Yes. 1) Learn what a back clip looks like. 2) Pay attention. Clipping bolts correctly is not rocket science. I don't mean to be an ass, but if you can't easily identify a back clip, lead climbing is probably not a good idea for you. Fuck you freeski. If you don't have anything useful to offer don't post. Off_Route
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kricir
Aug 11, 2006, 10:02 PM
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Krusher4 said
In reply to: Don't climb routes with bolts 2 feet apart. That's where I would start? I think you have confused back clipping with Z-clipping. In a normal climbing situation the biner is between you and the cliff, and the biner should be laying flat against the cliff, so you can see straight through it. the rope should go up from the belayer, through the cliff side of the biner, then out to you. If your rope goes from you to the back side of the biner then out and down to the belay, then you are back clipped and you are going to die!
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catbird_seat
Aug 11, 2006, 10:05 PM
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I suggest practicing at home. Hang a draw on the wall and just stand there and clip it again, and again with either hand. Then turn the draw around and repeat. Do it until you don't have to think about it anymore. Clipping efficiently is very important. By practicing on the floor at home you are separating the act of clipping from the act of climbing so you can concentrate on getting one skill down pat free from fear or distraction. When you grab the rope as it hangs below your harness, always grip it the same way, palm down, and slide your hand down the rope. If you grip it any old way you'll have constant trouble with back clipping. Remember the rope goes from you INTO the draw to the rock and down. If you prefer think the other way- the rope comes up away from the rock and to you. This is of course when the draw is hanging down from the bolt.
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jt512
Aug 11, 2006, 10:15 PM
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Congratulations on maximizing the confusion. You guys are simultaneously discussing 3 different types of clipping errors.
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elvislegs
Aug 11, 2006, 10:16 PM
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i always tell people that a properly clipped rope should run from your belayer, against the rock and out your draw to your tie-in. that's as clearly as i can explain it.
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flyinglow
Aug 11, 2006, 10:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Yes. 1) Learn what a back clip looks like. 2) Pay attention. Clipping bolts correctly is not rocket science. I don't mean to be an ass, but if you can't easily identify a back clip, lead climbing is probably not a good idea for you. f--- you freeski. If you don't have anything useful to offer don't post. Off_Route If you know what a back clip is, you won't have any trouble identifying it if you're paying attention. From your description (whch wasn't very clear), the problem you're having isn't backclipping, but draw orientation. fyi: a back clip is when the rope comes from the ground through the draw towards the rock and then along the rock up to you. in this situation, it is possible for the rope to fall across the gate and open it. Properly clipped, the rope is coming from the rock through the draw and then out to you. the climber's end of the rope should never be between the rock and the draw. As for helpful hints, practice, practice, practice. And always pull the rope up from your harness the same way. clip the draw with your hand on the outer side of the draw and the rope should be through it the right way.
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catbird_seat
Aug 11, 2006, 10:26 PM
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The original poster raised two issues: backclipping and orientation. I think the one he had the most trouble with was the former. In the example he cited, the route is more or less straight up and down. The orientation is not critical.
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sbaclimber
Aug 11, 2006, 10:40 PM
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:lol: Why can't I rate today? This whole thread has just been a mess of confusion, starting with the OP mixing up back clipping and orientation :P Thank you RC.com for making me smile :wink: Edit, btw, off_route, read this, and then try reformulating your question. You will probably either answer your own question, or at least be able to present it in a way that will get you flamed a little less.
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off_route
Aug 12, 2006, 12:54 AM
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Thanks for the link to the BD site PDF. That's exactly what I needed. The guy on the climb next to me was also saying "Rock, biner, climber not climber biner, rock" which, now that I've seen this pictures makes a little more sense. I shall attempt to practice my bolt clipping at home to be more consistant. As for posting is such a way as not to get flamed, all I can say is that the combustion point of posts on this board is low. I grew up "trad" climbing in Australia so sport climbing and its culture are new to me and I'm likely to get my terms mixed up. Thanks to those who offered links, tips and advice, I knew it was an easy fix I just was a little backwards yesterday. Off_Route
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addiroids
Aug 28, 2006, 1:20 PM
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Use shoulder length runners. Problem solved because it doesn't matter how you clip them.
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svilnit
Aug 28, 2006, 2:12 PM
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In reply to: Use shoulder length runners. Problem solved because it doesn't matter how you clip them. Why wouldn't it? (not being an ass, I'm just curious as I don't know the answer)
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deleted
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Aug 28, 2006, 7:28 PM
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[quote:6ece5eba2f="addiroids"]Use shoulder length runners. Problem solved because it doesn't matter how you clip them.[/quote:6ece5eba2f] Could you explain why this would be...If you back clip a biner, and the climber falls, the rope to the climber could open the gate regardless of the length of the runner???
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csproul
Aug 28, 2006, 7:45 PM
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The thinking here is that runners (as opposed to rigid draws) are more flexible and better able to twist if fallen on in a manner that would cause the magic unclipping trick. The rigidity of a quickdraw keeps a carabiner in a more rigid orientation. Try doing the magic unclipping trick in your living room with both a runner and a draw and you'll see it better. Suggesting the use of shoulder runners when sport climbing is just plain silly. Just learn not to backclip in the first place and then you'll not have to worry about it, and you'll endure less ridicule from your friends.
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Aug 28, 2006, 8:29 PM
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[quote:473066175e="csproul"]The thinking here is that runners (as opposed to rigid draws) are more flexible and better able to twist if fallen on in a manner that would cause the magic unclipping trick. The rigidity of a quickdraw keeps a carabiner in a more rigid orientation. Try doing the magic unclipping trick in your living room with both a runner and a draw and you'll see it better. [b:473066175e]Suggesting the use of shoulder runners when sport [/b:473066175e][b:473066175e]climbing is just plain silly.[/b:473066175e] Just learn not to backclip in the first place and then you'll not have to worry about it, and you'll endure less ridicule from your friends.[/quote:473066175e] I would agree. I had seen the warning signs on the piece of paper that comes with a set of new draws about back clipping, but I always wondered what percentage of the biners coming uncliped on a fall. It seems it would have to be just right to come unclipped.
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overlord
Aug 29, 2006, 6:53 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: The thinking here is that runners (as opposed to rigid draws) are more flexible and better able to twist if fallen on in a manner that would cause the magic unclipping trick. The rigidity of a quickdraw keeps a carabiner in a more rigid orientation. Try doing the magic unclipping trick in your living room with both a runner and a draw and you'll see it better. Suggesting the use of shoulder runners when sport climbing is just plain silly. Just learn not to backclip in the first place and then you'll not have to worry about it, and you'll endure less ridicule from your friends. I would agree. I had seen the warning signs on the piece of paper that comes with a set of new draws about back clipping, but I always wondered what percentage of the biners coming uncliped on a fall. It seems it would have to be just right to come unclipped. not really. the danger isnt just falling on the draw, it can also become unclipped as you climb above it. believe me, it has happened to me. only once though. while i wasnt hurt, it really scared me (one of my first leads) and it has never happened again. and it never will. the only way i can think of to avoid backclipping is practice. hang a draw and clip it ad nauseam. just make sure you ALWAYS clip it the correct way (eg, not backclipped). oh, and first draws are usually the trickiest to clip. after that the rope is pretty much on the rock and all you have to do is put it through the bottom biner. but like i said, practice. youll develop motorical memory and thus minimize the chance of accidental backclip AND youll improove your clipping speed. so you get two benefits with one excercise. just 5min/day for a 14 days. just like telemarketing weight loss programs.
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Aug 29, 2006, 11:23 AM
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[quote:a258e630c2="overlord"][quote:a258e630c2="fmd"][quote:a258e630c2="csproul"]The thinking here is that runners (as opposed to rigid draws) are more flexible and better able to twist if fallen on in a manner that would cause the magic unclipping trick. The rigidity of a quickdraw keeps a carabiner in a more rigid orientation. Try doing the magic unclipping trick in your living room with both a runner and a draw and you'll see it better. [b:a258e630c2]Suggesting the use of shoulder runners when sport [/b:a258e630c2][b:a258e630c2]climbing is just plain silly.[/b:a258e630c2] Just learn not to backclip in the first place and then you'll not have to worry about it, and you'll endure less ridicule from your friends.[/quote:a258e630c2] I would agree. I had seen the warning signs on the piece of paper that comes with a set of new draws about back clipping, but I always wondered what percentage of the biners coming uncliped on a fall. It seems it would have to be just right to come unclipped.[/quote:a258e630c2] [b:a258e630c2]not really. the danger isnt just falling on the draw, it can also become [/b:a258e630c2][b:a258e630c2]unclipped as you climb above it. believe me, it has happened to me.[/b:a258e630c2] only once though. while i wasnt hurt, it really scared me (one of my first leads) and it has never happened again. and it never will. the only way i can think of to avoid backclipping is practice. hang a draw and clip it ad nauseam. just make sure you ALWAYS clip it the correct way (eg, not backclipped). oh, and first draws are usually the trickiest to clip. after that the rope is pretty much on the rock and all you have to do is put it through the bottom biner. but like i said, practice. youll develop motorical memory and thus minimize the chance of accidental backclip AND youll improove your clipping speed. so you get two benefits with one excercise. just 5min/day for a 14 days. just like telemarketing weight loss programs.[/quote:a258e630c2] Could you explain this more in detail. If the rope is running UP to the climber and the biner is oriented correctly, how can the rope unclip the biner???
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ja1484
Aug 29, 2006, 11:43 AM
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In reply to: The thinking here is that runners (as opposed to rigid draws) are more flexible and better able to twist if fallen on in a manner that would cause the magic unclipping trick. The rigidity of a quickdraw keeps a carabiner in a more rigid orientation. Try doing the magic unclipping trick in your living room with both a runner and a draw and you'll see it better. Suggesting the use of shoulder runners when sport climbing is just plain silly. Just learn not to backclip in the first place and then you'll not have to worry about it, and you'll endure less ridicule from your friends. This was what I was going to add. Unless you know there will be bolts that need extended draws for whatever reason, don't bring trad draws on a sport route. They tend to turn and twist easily, turning a good clip into a backclip and vice versa. In this instance, a screwgate on the rope end isn't a terrible idea, even though it is more of a hassle to manage on pumpier sport. For the vast majority of sport bolts, use dogbone draws. They'll keep everything oriented and easier to sort out. Oh, and God knows you should not be leading if you aren't familiar with backclipping, z-clipping, and the dangers of each. Biner/Draw orientation on the route isn't as big a deal but still matters, and the basic rule is thus: You should place your draws such that the gate of the rope end biner faces away from the anticipated line of travel. That is to say, if your next bolt is to the left of your current bolt, the draw you place on your current bolt should have the rope-end biner's gate facing right. Worrying about the midline of the route doesn't matter much since (theoretically) the last clipped bolt should stop you in a fall. Running the *rope* up the midline of the route (or fairly close to it so as to make rope drage managable) is a matter of good bolting, proper draw extension, and environmental awareness to make sure your rope is running where it should be. Anyway, hope some of this helps.
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