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Marking the middle of a rope.
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davidji


Aug 16, 2006, 9:47 PM
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Or you could lash the center with dental floss like this:
...
PS: I stole that link from maculated's post a few years back.
I got it from maculated too. Did 3 ropes at once. On the thicker (single) rope, it nearly wore off the first day. I think it's still there on the halfs.

I used unwaxed, but I expect waxed would slide over rock better and stick to itself better.

I also expect the technique where you weave a little through floss the sheath would last longer.


catbird_seat


Aug 16, 2006, 9:55 PM
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Or you could lash the center with dental floss like this:

http://www.inquiry.net/images/whip.jpg

If tight, it holds for a few months depending on how much wear your rope gets. Then you have to pay to replace the very expensive and hard to come by dental floss. :lol:
I've done it this way. It works. You can buy waxed "marline" (stout nylon thread) at a marine hardware store. I used a needle and made several passes through the rope to lock the strands and make sure they don't move. Eventually abrasion removed it, but it was several months of use.


alpinismo_flujo


Aug 16, 2006, 10:42 PM
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SHARPIE

Now mark the damn thing and go climbing!


billl7


Aug 17, 2006, 12:06 AM
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If you do mark it with a marker then at least take a close look at the results. I've seen sheath (core?) shrinkage from markers; that is, I've seen an easily noticed reduction in outside diameter of the rope where the mark is located - long after the mark was made. :shock:

That's not to say that you can always visually tell if there are any ill effects - just sometimes.

Bill L


bootlegger


Aug 17, 2006, 12:28 AM
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Seriously, stay away from the tape. My partner tried that. 1) It moved over time. 2) It would stick going through the belay device, especially on a gri-gri (makes for a pissed off partner when you short rope him on lead while fiddling around getting the tape through the gri-gri). Never had any safety concern about rope strength, but from a practical perspective it just doesn't work.


pastprime


Aug 17, 2006, 4:32 PM
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Regarding the question of whether running a needle through the rope weakens it; tests I have seen showed no reduction in strength when a crampon point was pushed all the way through the rope, such as would happen if the rope were stepped on by someone wearing crampons. Based on that, I'd not worry about a mere needle and thread. I also, none the less, try to avoid stepping on the rope when wearing crampons.

As to JA1484's assertion that a 50% reduction in rope strength just means a 50% reduction in the number of falls it will hold before failing, my head is spinning. Maybe someone with more patience than I'm feeling can explain how completely and utterly wrong this is for so many reasons.
One might start to understand by looking at it this way, however:
Imagine a ten fall rope that starts out with a breaking strengt of 6000 pounds. The rope is then cut, or treated with acid, so that its strength is reduced to 10% of its former value, or 600 pounds. Do you really think this rope is still good for one really hard fall?


ja1484


Aug 17, 2006, 4:43 PM
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As to JA1484's assertion that a 50% reduction in rope strength just means a 50% reduction in the number of falls it will hold before failing, my head is spinning. Maybe someone with more patience than I'm feeling can explain how completely and utterly wrong this is for so many reasons.
One might start to understand by looking at it this way, however:
Imagine a ten fall rope that starts out with a breaking strengt of 6000 pounds. The rope is then cut, or treated with acid, so that its strength is reduced to 10% of its former value, or 600 pounds. Do you really think this rope is still good for one really hard fall?


I understand where you're going with that, but I simply reported the info as the UIAA did. Being a nitpicker about terms aside, they essentially found that the number of UIAA falls held was reduced to roughly half of what it was in the pre-marking tests.

In other words, yeah, it's not literally a 50% strength reduction if you're going to be anal about it, but rather a 50% reduction in UIAA falls held prior to breaking.

Again, make of that what you will.

Here's the actual blurb they put out. Even the UIAA refers to it informally as rope strength, whereas in fact it appears the dynamic qualities of the rope are more what's affected.

In reply to:
Marking of Ropes by End-users
15.05.2002 11:00

End-users of climbing ropes have been marking their ropes to help rope management. At the last Plenary Session the Safety Commission, together with the attending rope manufacturers, dealt with this problem. It was concluded that certain products act aggressively on polyamid. As a result the Commission has published the following NOTIFICATION:
Notification Concerning the Marking of Ropes
Tests done by the UIAA Safety Commission and some rope manufacturers have shown that marking ropes with liquids such as those provided by felt-tipped pens can damage them; even with those markers, sold specifically for marking ropes. The test results have shown a decrease of up to 50% of the rope strength, more correctly: of the energy absorption capacity of the rope (expressed by the number of falls in the standard test method in accordance with the UIAA Standard101).
Therefore the UIAA Safety Commission warns against marking a rope with any substance that has not been specifically approved by the rope manufacturer of that rope.
It is not possible for the UIAA Safety Commission to test all markers that are commercially available and can be used for marking ropes. Furthermore it would be impossible for the UIAA Safety Commission to keep such information up-to-date. In addition, the effect of any rope marker seems to vary with the make of rope. Hence, all the UIAA Safety Commission can do is to warn mountaineers and climbers.
Issued: April 2002
News
UIAA Standards

http://www.uiaa.ch/article.aspx?a=78&c=1

God I love literalists :roll:


pastprime


Aug 17, 2006, 5:34 PM
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OK, I see how the misunderstanding occurred. Sorry for being curt. (One could take that a couple of ways)
In truth, this exchange, to me shows the value of being literal at those times when more than one meaning could be read into what is being said.
If the term "strength" is being used sometimes to mean breaking strength, sometimes to mean impact force, and other times to mean number of falls, the reader might misunderstand the writer's intended meaning, as I did.
I don't think the UIAA's use of the word strength was a good choice in this context, and the fact that they felt a need to explain how they were using the word in that place, shows even they weren't sure that it was the clearest possible choice of terms they might have used.
Not at all trying to argue, just stating a point of view. There are certainly more pressing issues facing the world at this time.
If I had known you better, I'd have thought, "I know what he really means by this reply", and let it go.


ja1484


Aug 17, 2006, 5:38 PM
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Fair 'nuff. No hard feelings :lol:


sspssp


Aug 17, 2006, 6:27 PM
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Metolius is now selling Monster Ropes. They have this really cool middle marker feature. Two bright pink strands of nylon sewn through middle. They also have a single strand of red yarn 30 ft. from either end. This is really handy (pun intended) for rappelling. You can feel the markers go through your hands letting you know that you are near the "end of your rope".

This is the first I had heard about this. I had been thinking for years that in addition to marking the middle, rope makers needed to mark the end.

However, I'm not too impressed with how Metolius did this.

I did a search and the first rope that came up was white. This makes the middle/end markers stand out better, but it looks like a static rope. Not that this is directly bad, but I would prefer rope makers to keep the style/pattern on static ropes very different from dynamic. Somebody who gets used to leading on this rope could someday lead on a static. Yea, who would be that stupid... People do do stupid things on occasion. Visual clues and good habbits are the best defense.

My main complaint is that 30 feet from the ends is way too far. If you are rapping down looking for an anchor in the dark (etc)...yea, it would be nice to know that you have 30 feet left. But this is enough to notice and then forget about as you keep going down/looking.

Similarly, if lowering someone, 30 feet is still enough rope out that you can't tell if there is enough rope to get them to the ground.

I would prefer something more on the order of 2 meters to 10 feet. Emergency stop, don't do anything else (do not pass go).

The 30 foot marker would be good for warning your leader that there is 30 feet left in which to find a good anchor.


davidji


Aug 17, 2006, 6:51 PM
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The 30 foot marker would be good for warning your leader that there is 30 feet left in which to find a good anchor.

Good point.

Years ago when I would still use a sharpie as a rope marker, I'd mark the middle & two arms spans (~12') from each end.


veganboyjosh


Aug 17, 2006, 6:54 PM
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My main complaint is that 30 feet from the ends is way too far. If you are rapping down looking for an anchor in the dark (etc)...yea, it would be nice to know that you have 30 feet left. But this is enough to notice and then forget about as you keep going down/looking.

if forgetting that you're near the end of the rope when there's all of 30 feet left is a problem when you rappell, then perhaps this sport isn't for you.

In reply to:
Similarly, if lowering someone, 30 feet is still enough rope out that you can't tell if there is enough rope to get them to the ground.

ok, i can see this. the difference between 30 and 40 feet could be hard to judge from the ground.

In reply to:
Emergency stop, don't do anything else (do not pass go).

i could see a use for something like this (perhaps with enough rope left to tie a mule, etc and escape that belay, deal with issues, etc), but i'd prefer to have some extra rope to work with, i can get closer to the rock, climb up a move or two, have the climber come off a little bit higher than the deck, etc...but getting to a point whereyou can't do anything else is a little um...scary.
it's like lowering someone on a climb with a rope that's way too short, with the belayer tied into the other end. there's really not much you can do at that point. i'd rather be tied in just in case, but have the other options available...

In reply to:
The 30 foot marker would be good for warning your leader that there is 30 feet left in which to find a good anchor.

andi can vouch that it is nice...


dontmaytagme


Aug 17, 2006, 7:55 PM
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Argh. Long thread.. Umm.. Rope is made, typically, from Nylon 6 or 9. So! Call your rope manufacturer.. Find what raw material was utilized to create "your" rope.. perhaps request the actual name..

If you're going to use a marker.. find the carrier that is utilized in the marker.. Many times it was Xylene or in Our Modern Times, a type of Alcohol.

http://www.madsci.org/...1125342426.Ch.r.html

That said.. your old skool marker.. Xylene based is prolly not the "best" choice for marking a midsection. The alcohol based markers are, ob duh, the better choice.


More information http://en.wikibooks.org/...ry/Fibres/Polyamides

However.. I just use floss.

The new Metolius / Lanex line looks nice.. but.. prolly wears just as quick or less so, than floss.

Ymmv.


ja1484


Aug 17, 2006, 9:10 PM
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I just wish rope manufacturers would get off their butts and start weaving sheath with a decent sized (~12") color change every 100 ft. This'd work out fine for middle marking 60m. Adjust interval as needed for 50 or 70m.

But then, that bi pattern deal is netting them mega profit, so I'm not surprised they're not stopping it. Ironically, bi pattern is only a minor help, as finding where the pattern changes in a coil is actually more difficult than with a Sharpie middle mark.


Partner j_ung


Aug 17, 2006, 9:28 PM
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^^speaking of dental floss, and mammut supersafe ropes, was that the one with some thread pulled through the rope at the midpoint? The pic i saw showed approx. an inch of thread sticking out from each side, making the middle easy to find and impossible to move. I'll have to try that with a needle and thread when my mid-mark becomes impossible to find.

From Return to Gearland, last winter:

In reply to:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=68531

A variation of the old jerry-rig trick of stitching a piece of thread through your sheath (which is not recommended by manufacturers), this method of marking Metolius’ Monster Ropes is nothing more than a day-glo piece of thread sewn through the rope itself. According to Metolius, it doesn’t compromise strength at all, but still provides a highly-visible and tactile (for ultra-spooky night rappels) warning that the end of the rope is near. Every Monster Rope being made now has this mark at the middle and 10 meters from both ends. Of course, neither Metolius nor I advocate NOT continuing to tie knots in the ends of your rappel ropes.

:)


veganboyjosh


Aug 17, 2006, 9:43 PM
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Of course, neither Metolius nor I advocate NOT continuing to tie knots in the ends of your rappel ropes.

this took me a second to realize it didn't say what i first thought it did...but thanks for putting it in there.


sspssp


Aug 17, 2006, 9:59 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
My main complaint is that 30 feet from the ends is way too far. If you are rapping down looking for an anchor in the dark (etc)...yea, it would be nice to know that you have 30 feet left. But this is enough to notice and then forget about as you keep going down/looking.

if forgetting that you're near the end of the rope when there's all of 30 feet left is a problem when you rappell, then perhaps this sport isn't for you.

Climbers rap/lower partners off the end of the rope every year. Just read Accidents in North American Mountaineering.

Having a 30 foot mark would presumably cut down on the incidents of this happening. However, I think having it in the 6 to 10 foot range would be much more effective.

In reply to:
Emergency stop, don't do anything else (do not pass go).

In reply to:
i could see a use for something like this (perhaps with enough rope left to tie a mule, etc and escape that belay, deal with issues, etc), but i'd prefer to have some extra rope to work with, i can get closer to the rock, climb up a move or two, have the climber come off a little bit higher than the deck, etc...but getting to a point whereyou can't do anything else is a little um...scary.

When people rap off the end or lower their partner off the end, they aren't usually tied into a belay, so escaping the belay isn't an issue.

But in any event, if 10 feet of rope isn't enough to tie yourself off (if rapping) or deal with a partner who isn't yet on the ground, then, hum, maybe this sport isn't for you. :P


veganboyjosh


Aug 17, 2006, 10:09 PM
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Climbers rap/lower partners off the end of the rope every year. Just read Accidents in North American Mountaineering.

which is why i always tie knots in the ends...


In reply to:
But in any event, if 10 feet of rope isn't enough to tie yourself off (if rapping) or deal with a partner who isn't yet on the ground, then, hum, maybe this sport isn't for you. :P

touche.


kachoong


Aug 17, 2006, 10:16 PM
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Tie a granny knot.
In reply to:
cut the middle out and put it in your pocket, that way you will always know where it is.
Both of these sound like viable options. :wink:

In reply to:
Use anything but battery acid.
....and cat piss, of course....


timm


Aug 17, 2006, 11:48 PM
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I once used a "pen" sold by Beal to mark the middle of my rope. When I saw what it did to my rope that was the only rope I ever marked with it and I threw the "pen" away. Even lightly applied, the solution caused the sheath to shrink and the section of rope that was marked to become *extremely* stiff. It was so stiff so that the marked section couldn't easily go thru an ATC when weighted.

Recently I borrowed a Bluewater rope marking pen from a friend. The Bluewater pen used a water based solution which did not make the rope stiff or the sheath to shrink. Unforntunately the mark would fade after time (about 25 pitches or so) or if the rope became wet. But, Bluewater no longer makes these pens.

I've seen that PMI is now selling a special Sharpie pen where the ink and carrier solution are batch tested for chemicals harmful to the rope and they recommend the pen as a way to mark your rope.

I haven't tried it yet but I may order a couple to try them out. Anyone have any experience with this pen yet ?

The PMI pens are at:

http://pmirope.secure-shops5.com/...?itemid=248&catid=42

and also at gearexpress.com in their rope section.


rastafarout


Aug 18, 2006, 1:08 AM
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Im also thinking about buying the PMI pen.Anyone have an advice?


veganboyjosh


Aug 18, 2006, 1:13 AM
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i just did the dental floss wrap, someone posted earlier. was hella easy, i wrapped it hella tight, and made the wrap about 1/2 inch long, so easy to find in a pile of rope.
will let you know when it comes off...


zozo


Aug 18, 2006, 1:37 AM
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Plus when you get gorp caught in your teeth you can bust off a piece, floss and have some hella clean gums!


veganboyjosh


Aug 18, 2006, 2:16 AM
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Plus when you get gorp caught in your teeth you can bust off a piece, floss and have some hella clean gums!

or the dried bean curd jerky!

http://shopping.sina.com/...agif/NH/dscf0071.jpg

mmmmmmgood.


el_jerko


Aug 20, 2006, 12:33 PM
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I run a dozen or so pieces of regular sewing thread through the weave in the sheeth with about 1/4 inch sticking out. It looks kind of fuzzy making it easy to see and I can't feel it going through a belay device. I can't imagine this weakens the rope in any way, but would be interested in hearing how it would.

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