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johnx13
Aug 20, 2006, 10:43 PM
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I'm topropping Outside and was wondering if someone can tell me some
basic knots to start off with? :?
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ctardi
Aug 20, 2006, 11:03 PM
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Figure Eight
Water Knot
Overhand Knot
You should take a course (Better) or learn from someone expereinced (good). They will teach you all the knots you need and when to use them.
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kman
Aug 20, 2006, 11:35 PM
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overhand knot? Your telling a guy that does not know what knots to use for toproping to use an overhand knot? What if he decide to tie in with the fuckin thing based on your advice?
Dude. If you don't even know what knots to use then maybe you should go with some one that has experience so you don't get yourself killed.
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ctardi
Aug 20, 2006, 11:51 PM
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So, what do you use for a stopper knot?
I use a variation of a barrel, but an overhand will do.
Edit: I can spell good!
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sbaclimber
Aug 20, 2006, 11:52 PM
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In reply to: overhand knot? Your telling a guy that does not know what knots to use for toproping to use an overhand knot?
I can name about a dozen knots/hitches that I use on a regular basis while climbing, and not one of them is an 'overhand knot' :?
Although.......I do start the bow when tying my climbing shoes with it.....but I doubt that is what you were referring to :roll:
Edit, you beat me to my last post......
Nope, I do not use an overhand as a stopper knot.
I will occasionally use it a 'back up' knot, but I most certainly wouldn't recommend it to a beginner!
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kman
Aug 21, 2006, 12:29 AM
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In reply to: So, what do you use for a stopper knot? I use a variation of a barrel, but an overhand will do. Edit: I can spell good!
My point is the guy has no clue and you are giving him a one word answer without explaining what it can be used for. It can be easily misenterpreted as being ok to use an overhand knot for applications other than a "stopper" knot. A little bit of info can be a very very bad thing.
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coolklimber
Aug 21, 2006, 1:02 AM
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I use a figure 8 for a stopper. If you don't know what knots to use for climbing, you shouldn't be doing it.
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ctardi
Aug 21, 2006, 2:07 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: So, what do you use for a stopper knot? I use a variation of a barrel, but an overhand will do. Edit: I can spell good! My point is the guy has no clue and you are giving him a one word answer without explaining what it can be used for. It can be easily misenterpreted as being ok to use an overhand knot for applications other than a "stopper" knot. A little bit of info can be a very very bad thing.
Yup Yup, I understand.
I edited my origional post to reflect that.
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deltav
Aug 21, 2006, 2:33 AM
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In reply to: So, what do you use for a stopper knot? I use a variation of a barrel, but an overhand will do. Edit: I can spell good!
Stopper knots are worthless
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jt512
Aug 21, 2006, 4:09 AM
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In reply to: I'm topropping Outside and was wondering if someone can tell me some basic knots to start off with? :?
You're toproping a magazine?
Jay
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ctardi
Aug 21, 2006, 5:22 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: So, what do you use for a stopper knot? I use a variation of a barrel, but an overhand will do. Edit: I can spell good! Stopper knots are worthless
Really? Could you tell me why? Could you also tell my why in order to get an ACMG cert, you must use them on any rap, or you will fail the course? Why have people died because of not using them?
A guide a few years ago figured that he did not need them on a single pitch rap. He was in a situation like you would be, working with a large group (althoug not YMCA). He threw down his last rope, made sure both ends were on the ground, then grabbed his pack. In this time a kid at the bottom pulled one end of the rope up 30 or so feet. Guide rapped it, came off the end. I'm fairly certain he died from that.
Alot of top roping craigs are near public trails now. Why risk some young kids playing with your rope when you arn't looking? Why not get into the habbit for multi pitch climbs? Is your life worth 2 seconds?
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mattyp
Aug 21, 2006, 9:08 AM
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Amen. My life is worth more than a few seconds. I'll sit up there all day to make sure I am not going to die from some stupid mistake. I'll even risk looking stupid and asking someone else if I am doing it right, no matter how many times I have done something. No knot is worthless, they all have their uses.
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fmd
Aug 21, 2006, 10:48 AM
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In reply to: I'm topropping Outside and was wondering if someone can tell me some basic knots to start off with? :?
You dont even know these people that are giving you adivse. LOOK, they cant even agree on what you need..............You posted that you are "new to this climbing thing". Dude, go out and pony up for a couple of books on climbing and then find someone that you trust to take you out to top rope. You are putting yourself in a postion of playing Russian roullette with trail and errors. STOP asking silly questions BTW...how old are you??
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fmd
Aug 21, 2006, 10:52 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: So, what do you use for a stopper knot? I use a variation of a barrel, but an overhand will do. Edit: I can spell good!
Could you please elaborate more on this????
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johnx13
Aug 21, 2006, 11:00 AM
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johnx13 wrote:
I'm topropping Outside and was wondering if someone can tell me some
basic knots to start off with?
mattyp wrote:
You dont even know these people that are giving you adivse. LOOK, they cant even agree on what you need..............You posted that you are "new to this climbing thing". Dude, go out and pony up for a couple of books on climbing and then find someone that you trust to take you out to top rope. You are putting yourself in a postion of playing Russian roullette with trail and errors. STOP asking silly questions BTW...how old are you??
Ok,That what I'm going to do what mattyp said!!!... I'm 17 years old
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deltav
Aug 21, 2006, 1:28 PM
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PLEASE NOTE!
I retract my statement regarding stopper knots. I was tired and I gues I was not really paying attention to what was being said. For some reason, I thought people were refering to what is commonly called a "stopper" knot, as a finish to their fig. 8 tie in. These are what I refered to as worthless, not the knot at the end of your rope to keep you from rapping off the end of your rope. Those can mean the difference between life and death. Please forgive my stupidity.:oops:
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kman
Aug 21, 2006, 3:37 PM
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More misunderstanding caused by insufficient info with the stopper knot. They are worthless to back up your figure 8 tie in.
In reply to: In reply to: I'm topropping Outside and was wondering if someone can tell me some basic knots to start off with? :? You're toproping a magazine? Jay
:lol: :lol: :lol: good one.
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bluering
Aug 21, 2006, 3:47 PM
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Johnx13, you know how to tie a figure-eight, right??? To start with, that's all you really need. I assume you are not rappeling yet, right? Don't!!!! Not until you read a book or talk to an experienced climber in person. Who is setting up your toprope anchor? What does the anchor consist of? A good anchor is just as important as the knot your tie your life to.
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j_ung
Aug 21, 2006, 4:03 PM
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Back up knots for tie-ins are anything but unnecessary. On the contrary, if the climber screws up the tie-in badly enough and the pre-climb check fails to catch it, the back-up knot -- perhaps an overhand -- might be the only thing between him or her and the ground. Telling a beginner that such a back-up is worthless is far less responsible than telling him to learn an overhand, IMO.
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deltav
Aug 21, 2006, 4:22 PM
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In pull tests, a back up knot has proven no help in holding the rope to the harness, I will look to see if I can find some data...
If the reasoning behind a back-up knot is if other things fail, what about the instances where people have "accidentally" clipped into the loop formed between the 8 and the back up knot, weighted it and fell to their death? This has happened, and while I realize that the knot should be snug up against the 8, people have been known to screw things up.
The fact of the matter is, learn from someone who has had considerable experience, in person. Only then make an attempt on your own.
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j_ung
Aug 21, 2006, 6:13 PM
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In reply to: In pull tests, a back up knot has proven no help in holding the rope to the harness, I will look to see if I can find some data... If the reasoning behind a back-up knot is if other things fail, what about the instances where people have "accidentally" clipped into the loop formed between the 8 and the back up knot, weighted it and fell to their death? This has happened, and while I realize that the knot should be snug up against the 8, people have been known to screw things up. The fact of the matter is, learn from someone who has had considerable experience, in person. Only then make an attempt on your own.
I've seen it work twice, therefore no amount of pull test data will convince me otherwise.
As for clipping into the loop... Are you playing the "people have been known to screw things up," angle to argue that people shouldn't have safeguards in place in case they screw up? ;) That's not to mention that we're discussing tie-in knots, not clip-in knots.
Especially for beginners who aren't even sure which knots they need, a proper back-up knot is crucial. I can't think of a single instructor, guide or plain ol' experienced climber who would ever purposely exclude back-up knots from any lesson. And I know a lot of 'em. As far as I'm concerned, it's right up there with the most basic safety practices, just like keep your brake hand on the rope and double-check your partner.
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rockguide
Aug 21, 2006, 6:21 PM
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I teach the figure 8 without a backup knot and teach the students how to check the knot properly.
The figure 8, unlike the standard bowline, is a stable knot.
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j_ung
Aug 21, 2006, 6:31 PM
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In reply to: I teach the figure 8 without a backup knot and teach the students how to check the knot properly. The figure 8, unlike the standard bowline, is a stable knot.
I teach my students how to back up their tie-ins AND how to check both properly. Again, back up knots aren't supposed to back up figure 8 follow-throughs. They're supposed to back up human error. And I think we all know it isn't possible to eliminate human error 100% of the time.
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fmd
Aug 21, 2006, 6:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In pull tests, a back up knot has proven no help in holding the rope to the harness, I will look to see if I can find some data... If the reasoning behind a back-up knot is if other things fail, what about the instances where people have "accidentally" clipped into the loop formed between the 8 and the back up knot, weighted it and fell to their death? This has happened, and while I realize that the knot should be snug up against the 8, people have been known to screw things up. The fact of the matter is, learn from someone who has had considerable experience, in person. Only then make an attempt on your own. I've seen it work twice, therefore no amount of pull test data will convince me otherwise. As for clipping into the loop... Are you playing the "people have been known to screw things up," angle to argue that people shouldn't have safeguards in place in case they screw up? ;) That's not to mention that we're discussing tie-in knots, not clip-in knots. Especially for beginners who aren't even sure which knots they need, a proper back-up knot is crucial. I can't think of a single instructor, guide or plain ol' experienced climber who would ever purposely exclude back-up knots from any lesson. And I know a lot of 'em. As far as I'm concerned, it's right up there with the most basic safety practices, just like keep your brake hand on the rope and double-check your partner.
I had taken several classes (most were AMGA rock guide or rock instructors teaching...the old level 1 or level 2) and again it was a DEPEND on what knots needed backed up. For instance the figure eight, they all said no stopper knot needed, but the bowline needed backed up. For simplicity I just back up ALL my knots to include the water knot and figure eights....BUT, I had been taught that all tie in knots dont need stopper knots. Even on Rope written by Bruce Smith and Allen Pagget says the water knot dont need a stopper knot if set correctly.............Just my .02 cents..............
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j_ung
Aug 21, 2006, 6:47 PM
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Yet again, the back up isn't for the figure 8. It's for the mistake that was supposed to be a figure 8.
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