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mountaindreamer
Aug 21, 2006, 11:49 PM
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Okay, this is probably going to sound dumb, but I've heard several posters refer to clipping one thing or another into the "shelf" of a cordalette. I use a cordalette as my preferred multipitch trad anchor system (no, I don't want to debate equalization vs redundancy.....), and I clip essentially everything into the powerpoint. What, exactly, is the "shelf"?
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sbaclimber
Aug 21, 2006, 11:54 PM
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Purely taken from the context in which I have seen it used, I believe it to be above the knot used to create the powerpoint....
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ctardi
Aug 22, 2006, 12:01 AM
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The shelf is the point above the knot that will still give you a redundant spot to clip into. This changes for the two situations. Multiple peices of gear, and a single tree.
For multiple peices of gear, clip one strand from each peice.
For a tree, clip both strands one one side, otherwise you might clip the same strand twice.
I'll add photos later.
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eyecannon
Aug 22, 2006, 5:47 PM
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You can clip in to above the knot, but I'm pretty sure you don't want to do this unless you already have something clipped at the powerpoint, since if you don't, a force on the shelf can untie your overhand knot.
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ctardi
Aug 22, 2006, 5:59 PM
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It CAN untie your overhand knot, altough I havn't had that happen. I usually put my belay (Munter if it's a straight pitch, redirect to an atc on my harness if it was travresey at all.) and my personal teather on the shelf (clove hitch of the lead rope)
I do tie my cordlette a bit long, so I usually use a figure eight.
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beesty511
Aug 22, 2006, 7:34 PM
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if you are already clipped into the power point, and the power point is getting crowded for whatever reason, you can also clip stuff in above the figure eight. you need to clip into every loop going to your pieces. if you have a three piece anchor then there are three loops coming out of the top of the figure eight and you need to clip *into* all three of those loops simultaneously.
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ctardi
Aug 22, 2006, 7:41 PM
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Here are the photos of your three main situations. First, you have a cordlette around a bomber tree, tied up with a figure eight knot. With only two loops/four strands, you may not get an overhand knot undone after weighting.
In this case, we clip both strands on one side, because if you take one from each side of the tree, you might only actually clip one strand. This way you know you are getting redundancy.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=77478
With two peices, clip one strand from each peice. Again, with only two peices A)at least one should be a bolt/bomber tree, and B) use a figure eight knot.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=77479
And finally with three peices, you can use an overhand in this situation because the knot is big enough to still be undoable. Clip one strand from each peice.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=77480
And, of course, always lock the biner. ;)
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tradklime
Aug 22, 2006, 8:05 PM
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You guys still using the now officially debunked cordalette anchor technique....?
:roll: sheesh
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ctardi
Aug 22, 2006, 8:09 PM
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In reply to: You guys still using the now officially debunked cordalette anchor technique....? :roll: sheesh
Yea well...it's how I learned it, works fine for me. :P
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mountaindreamer
Aug 22, 2006, 8:30 PM
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Thanks for the clarification on the "shelf". That's what I assumed was meant, but I will confess I hadn't thought about the single loop around a bomber tree example. And yeah, I still use the debunked cordalette because I am a big fan of simplicity and speed on multi-pitch and every other one of the proposed anchors is complicated, equipment intensive, or slow. If I have "non-bomber" pieces, I'll use a sliding x with limiter knots to equalize the load.
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beesty511
Aug 23, 2006, 9:57 PM
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In reply to: You guys still using the now officially debunked cordalette anchor technique....? |
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jimdavis
Aug 24, 2006, 3:47 AM
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In reply to: It CAN untie your overhand knot, altough I havn't had that happen. I usually put my belay (Munter if it's a straight pitch, redirect to an atc on my harness if it was travresey at all.) and my personal teather on the shelf (clove hitch of the lead rope) I do tie my cordlette a bit long, so I usually use a figure eight.
I'm pretty sure the Fig-8 is more prone to inverting that an Overhand knot. Hence, why the EDK is used for a rappel rope juntion knot and not the Fig-8.
Using the shelf in these anchor configs is a great way to cut down on the CF's.
Cheers,
Jim
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tradklime
Aug 24, 2006, 4:04 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You guys still using the now officially debunked cordalette anchor technique....? it hasn't been debunked at all--rather its shortcomings have been explained. however most people completely overlooked the shortcomings of many of the contraptions posted in the overbearingly long sliding x thread. the shortcomings of those rigs include not accounting for friction and too many knots. friction over biners will prevent many of the contraptions from equalizing properly. the more biners the worse it gets. and knots weaken cord by up to 35%. a series of knots can make arms of those rigs as weak as 6-7 kN. if friction over biners causes a majority of the fall force to go on one arm will 6-7kN provide enough safety margin for you?
Sure don't want to relitigate all that again. My comment was sort of tongue in check anyway.
I will say that I usually use the rope for my anchors, and have even just cloved hitched a series of pieces. Which is about as effective as a cordalette style anchor.
You guys do what you want, but I think there is plenty of evidnece to support that you can use the exact same materials/ equipment and come up with something that is an improvement with very similar simplicity and efficiency. If you don't understand that then you haven't done your homework.
To each his own.
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catbird_seat
Aug 24, 2006, 6:45 PM
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I'm one of those who learned to lead using cordellettes with which to build anchors. I've been climbing with an older climber a lot lately who uses the rope exclusively to build his anchors.
I have nothing against using the rope. It works rather well, in fact, until you decide you want to lead in blocks. If you are swinging leads, no worries, but if you want to lead consecutive pitches, the rope is trapped in the anchor and you have to exchange ends of the rope with your partner. This takes time.
I suppose you can transfer the rope to your anchor pieces, one at a time, but this doesn't seem that easy compared to just clipping in with a sling and exchanging ends.
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tradklime
Aug 24, 2006, 6:58 PM
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In reply to: I have nothing against using the rope. It works rather well, in fact, until you decide you want to lead in blocks. If you are swinging leads, no worries, but if you want to lead consecutive pitches, the rope is trapped in the anchor and you have to exchange ends of the rope with your partner. This takes time.
Usually, with 2 people the difference is marginal. The second climber simple attaches to the gear in the same manner that the leader did, with his own biners. So yes there is not one central point to clip, but rather several. We are talking seconds, not minutes.
However, a power point anchor can be beneficial for parties of 3 or more.
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ctardi
Aug 24, 2006, 8:36 PM
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I don't usually carry a teather, but I do carry a cordlette. I start with the bomberest peice, and clip it. Then I build my anchor with the cordlette. The, I use the lead rope (still clipped to that peice) with a clove hitch to the shelf for my teather. Undo the clip on the bomberest peice, and start pulling up rope. I usually belay off the master point with either a munter or a grigri, whichever I find first. Then when the second gets there, they just clove in to the master point with their own locker.
When you guys are using the rope for the anchor, how are you working that?
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catbird_seat
Aug 24, 2006, 9:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I have nothing against using the rope. It works rather well, in fact, until you decide you want to lead in blocks. If you are swinging leads, no worries, but if you want to lead consecutive pitches, the rope is trapped in the anchor and you have to exchange ends of the rope with your partner. This takes time. Usually, with 2 people the difference is marginal. The second climber simple attaches to the gear in the same manner that the leader did, with his own biners. So yes there is not one central point to clip, but rather several. We are talking seconds, not minutes. |
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tradklime
Aug 24, 2006, 10:51 PM
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In reply to: When you guys are using the rope for the anchor, how are you working that?
Here is a very common scenario. I lead a pitch and begin to set a 3 piece anchor at its end. I'm climbing on twins so I clove one rope to one piece and clove the second rope to another, call off belay. I then take the rope from the second piece and clove it to a third piece, and then run the rope back to my harness and attach it with a locker. I pull the rope, put the climber on belay (redirected or not, depending), and the second climber ascendes the route to the belay anchor. I tie him off at my belay device, swap gear, untie the knot at my belay device with him on belay, and he's off climbing.
Simple
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tradklime
Aug 24, 2006, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I have nothing against using the rope. It works rather well, in fact, until you decide you want to lead in blocks. If you are swinging leads, no worries, but if you want to lead consecutive pitches, the rope is trapped in the anchor and you have to exchange ends of the rope with your partner. This takes time. Usually, with 2 people the difference is marginal. The second climber simple attaches to the gear in the same manner that the leader did, with his own biners. So yes there is not one central point to clip, but rather several. We are talking seconds, not minutes. This sounds like a recipe for spaghetti. Whatever floats your boat.
Ya, real rocket science. Here's a tip, make sure the second climbers rope(s) all run under the the first climber's. That way when you restack the rope for the second climber to be the belayer, the first simply unclips his end of the rope(s) and he's off.
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