|
|
|
|
jr05
Aug 23, 2006, 10:41 PM
Post #1 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2006
Posts: 16
|
There are so many threads with people asking about simple anchor setups for TRing. I thought a thread where people critique and try to come up with a basic anchor setup that will work in a majority of cases would be nice. Natural pro is the way to go for a beginner and if there is a basic anchor setup scheme, if a climb does not meet the anchor needs, they can just go on to another climb until they have sufficient experience to place more complex anchors. Does this sound like a good idea to anybody else, or am I just nuts?
What does everybody think of this basic anchor setup? I know three trees is idea (this setup will work fine with another sling, etc) but I sketched it with 2 bomber trees for simplicity. If there is any question about the strength of the trees used, definately add another sling and tree to the anchor setup.
Sorry for the crappy sketch but I was bored at work and though I would draw this and see what everybody thinks....obviously everything is tight, I just couldn't draw it that way. The water knots have 3 inch tails in the diagram, this is because I usually use a fishermans knot to back them up. Without fisherman's knot, I would leave at least 6 inch tails.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=77528
|
|
|
|
|
tradalltheway
Aug 23, 2006, 11:41 PM
Post #2 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2004
Posts: 133
|
If I had 2 2' thick trees, I'd probably be TRing off of one and backed up with about 6" slack from the other one. I'd also substitute more 1" webbing for the 7mm cord and lose the figure 8 at the PP. I don't object and I'd never refuse to climb, but if I'm O&O it's non-lockers. I don't feel the need to O&O lockers. This setup is totally bombproof, just puttin' in my thoughts.
|
|
|
|
|
jr05
Aug 24, 2006, 2:47 AM
Post #3 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2006
Posts: 16
|
I agree one tree may be enough; however, as this is a beginners forum, I feel it is good to start off with at least 2 solid anchor points. There is plenty of time to decide where to take short cuts later when sufficiently informed about the risks of various setups.
As far as the anchor goes, why do you like more 1" webbing instead of the cord? Is this just a personal preference or do you feel the cord is inferior to the webbing for the anchor? If it is a strength thing, I agree tubular webbing is stronger than cord, I just like working with cord better and when doubled over like this, is probably plenty strong.
As far as the opposite and opposed, I agree the only real reason to do this is to prevent biners from opening. Though as a beginner lockers are great and why not get in the habit of opposite and opposed while still having that great safety of a locker (I do like lockers but I still double up mostly due to better rope travel though).
Thanks for the input! I hope this thread gets some more setup ideas to help out people. I was away from climbing for a couple years and recently was looking into what people are using for anchors now and wasn't able to find much TR info besides the basic 2 bolted anchors. Turns out nothing has changed as I expected, a bomber anchor setup from 10 years ago is still a bomber anchor today....just different gear to set it up.
|
|
|
|
|
jimdavis
Aug 24, 2006, 3:25 AM
Post #4 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935
|
While I commend the OP for posting up and asking about this before they go out and do it....it really says something when you have to ask, and on the internet at that about an anchor setup.
I'm gonna recommend that you really find a guide or a highly competitent climber to teach you how to build TR anchors...so you can go out and KNOW that your setups are bombproof.
We all know climbing gear and instruction isn't cheap, but the piece of mind that your doing exactally what your should be doing...should be well worth the $100-200 that you spend on a day with an expert.
There's also a plethora of info about TR anchors available in book and web form...and if after soaking up as much of that as you can, you still have questions....spend a day with an expert (guide or otherwise) and clear up all your questions in person, at the cliff, in a safe learning environment.
I'm glad this is a place where people feel comfortable asking these questions...but don't rule out paying for your education either...it'll get you a lot furthor, a lot faster.
Cheers,
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
zuegma
Aug 24, 2006, 4:36 AM
Post #5 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2006
Posts: 125
|
alright. i have been top roping for a while and started to wonder about his after reading this thread. they way i was taught to build TR anchors was to use two solid anchors. i dont thinkn that i have ever used a third anchor. although i guess it depends on the situation right? so when TRing do you use 2 or 3 anchor points if it isnt totaly bomber with one.
|
|
|
|
|
fmd
Aug 24, 2006, 11:46 AM
Post #6 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 656
|
In reply to: There are so many threads with people asking about simple anchor setups for TRing. I thought a thread where people critique and try to come up with a basic anchor setup that will work in a majority of cases would be nice. Natural pro is the way to go for a beginner and if there is a basic anchor setup scheme, if a climb does not meet the anchor needs, they can just go on to another climb until they have sufficient experience to place more complex anchors. Does this sound like a good idea to anybody else, or am I just nuts? What does everybody think of this basic anchor setup? I know three trees is idea (this setup will work fine with another sling, etc) but I sketched it with 2 bomber trees for simplicity. If there is any question about the strength of the trees used, definately add another sling and tree to the anchor setup. I would climb on this....but I would do it differently...I new climber is going to be lacking some gear and some knots know how. Why not use a 8-10 mm static rope around the trees. Build the cordellete just as you would for building an anchor on bolts. It is a very SERENE set up. This way, all you have is two biners and one 60 to 80 feet of static rope for anchoring just about anything, regardless of how far the trees are from the cliffs edge. I use a 9.8 mm New England static and it coils very compact and I paid 62.00 for 50 meters which I made 15" and 20" cordelettes from some of this. IMO............Frank http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=77528 |
|
|
|
|
fmd
Aug 24, 2006, 11:53 AM
Post #7 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 656
|
In reply to: There are so many threads with people asking about simple anchor setups for TRing. I thought a thread where people critique and try to come up with a basic anchor setup that will work in a majority of cases would be nice. Natural pro is the way to go for a beginner and if there is a basic anchor setup scheme, if a climb does not meet the anchor needs, they can just go on to another climb until they have sufficient experience to place more complex anchors. Does this sound like a good idea to anybody else, or am I just nuts? What does everybody think of this basic anchor setup? I know three trees is idea (this setup will work fine with another sling, etc) but I sketched it with 2 bomber trees for simplicity. If there is any question about the strength of the trees used, definately add another sling and tree to the anchor setup. Sorry for the crappy sketch but I was bored at work and though I would draw this and see what everybody thinks....obviously everything is tight, I just couldn't draw it that way. The water knots have 3 inch tails in the diagram, this is because I usually use a fishermans knot to back them up. Without fisherman's knot, I would leave at least 6 inch tails. http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=77528
I would climb on this.............But, I would do it differently.....I would build a cordellet instead of using webbing. A new climber isnt going going to have a lot of biners and extra gear for anchor building. How about if the trees are further back from the cliffs edge and he/she only has 60 feet of webbing?? I would suggest that he buys a 8-10 mm static rope and use it for his anchoring. This way he is able to build about any anchor regardless of how far the trees are from the cliff edge or the placement of the trees. Buy building a cordellete, you just eliminated two biner and several knots in the system. IMO....................Frank
|
|
|
|
|
boredwolf
Aug 24, 2006, 11:54 AM
Post #8 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 18, 2006
Posts: 75
|
I prefer static rope over Perlon. You don't have to worry so much about padding the edges, and you can do just about any TR setup imaginable with 70ft of static rope. I only use cordelette to TR from the bolts of climbs with no overhanging ledge. With your setup, I would recommend the magic X (can't tell what you drew) because you don't have to load the rope to equalize it, then.
|
|
|
|
|
jr05
Aug 24, 2006, 12:58 PM
Post #9 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2006
Posts: 16
|
First of all, thanks for all the input. It seems as though a lot of people think I am looking for anchor setup advice for my own anchors though....
I am trying to see if we can get a solid anchor setup diagram that some beginners with a little rope knowledge will be able to use to setup anchors on most climbs (and if the climb won't allow it, they just won't climb there until they know more techniques or have more gear).
As far as the rope vs webbing debate, I agree static line will also make excellent anchors and most likely much faster. I have used this method with other people, but I don't have a long length of rope myself so I stick with the webbing/7mm cordelette in various configurations. Maybe we can get a diagram of a static rope setup with double figure 8 for the PP then tied off to a couple trees? Would be nice to get a basic setup scheme for both a webbing setup and a static rope setup.
|
|
|
|
|
jr05
Aug 24, 2006, 1:50 PM
Post #10 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2006
Posts: 16
|
Static rope can be used to create excellent anchors as well, and probably much faster. I am just used to webbing and cordelette and do not have a large static rope I carry when I climb. Maybe we could get a diagram of a static rope setup on here as well. How does everybody like a basic static rope setup consisting of one end wrapped around a tree 4-5 times, then tied back the rope using a follow through figure 8 (or figure 8 and a biner...but then you risk somebody snagging it). Then tie two figure 8 for the PP and finally tie the other end of the rope to the second tree by going around it and using a follow through 8.
As for the "magic x" it definately could be used, but I prefer the figure 8 since equalization with changes in load direction isn't necissary for most TRing applications.
|
|
|
|
|
antiqued
Aug 24, 2006, 4:05 PM
Post #11 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 18, 2005
Posts: 243
|
You can't please everyone....I don't think I've ever seen many 24" trees growing close to cliff edges - or is that 24" circumference?
I think that the most common error after choosing inappropriate anchors is abrasion. Many toprope lines are not straight, many people flail, and some climbers take alternate routes to the same anchor. If the "trees" are not close to the edge, there can be a lot of wear. A sliding -X equalization is pointless on two bomber trees, and allows more abrasion at the edge.
Your setup is safe, but I would teach the use of something more substantial than 7mm cord over an edge, even with the note to "pad" the edge. Accidental or casual failure to pad can lead to rapid wear. A simple solution is to use some old 1" sling as a sleeve over the webbing, cord or rope used to go over the edge. A veteran climber has a closet of old ropes to use for top rope anchors, beginners would be better off buying 1" webbing or a length of static rope than 7mm cord. 7mm cord is weaker and stretchier.
|
|
|
|
|
percious
Aug 24, 2006, 6:14 PM
Post #12 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2005
Posts: 140
|
In my opinion, a static line is the best way for a beginner to set up a TR. Tie off to one tree (bowline, figure-8, double-8), two bunny ears for the power point with two lockers, cordolette and a coupla biners for the other side. Length of the Static should be relative to the places you typically TR. Here in CT, the trees are upwords of 50 ft back from the best cliffs. I have a 200 ft 7/16inch static and never have been wont of a longer one. I think 100 ft would be good for most places.
I would suggest if you are a beginner then seek out a guide who will spend a day with you learning about TR setups. There is no "ideal" setup for all situations, instead there are trade-offs (benefit/risk) for all situations. Spend a 1/2 day with a guide and you *might* understand how to weigh your options, and it will cost you a little more that $100. How much is your life worth anyway?
-percious
|
|
|
|
|
kobaz
Aug 24, 2006, 6:37 PM
Post #13 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2004
Posts: 726
|
The advantage of 1 inch webbing for toprope setups is that when you have movement of the anchor components upon the rock. With 1 inch webbing the abrasion will be spread out over a large surface area compared to the smaller cord. It is especially useful to use webbing when you have sharp edges at the cliff side.
Heres what I do:
Pick a piece of webbing that is long enough to go directly from the tree to the cliff and hang over the cliff (this assumes you have 50 foot pieces of webbing sometimes). Tie a water knot so you have a continuous loop from the tree to your power point. Repeat the processs with as many trees as it takes to make you comfy. Equalize the lengths of all the webbing so that you don't need to tie a knot at the power point. Clip OO oval biners at the power point, thread the rope and start climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
fmd
Aug 24, 2006, 7:15 PM
Post #14 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 656
|
In reply to: The advantage of 1 inch webbing for toprope setups is that when you have movement of the anchor components upon the rock. With 1 inch webbing the abrasion will be spread out over a large surface area compared to the smaller cord. It is especially useful to use webbing when you have sharp edges at the cliff side. Heres what I do: Pick a piece of webbing that is long enough to go directly from the tree to the cliff and hang over the cliff ( this assumes you have 50 foot pieces of webbing sometimes). Tie a water knot so you have a continuous loop from the tree to your power point. Repeat the processs with as many trees as it takes to make you comfy. Equalize the lengths of all the webbing so that you don't need to tie a knot at the power point. Clip OO oval biners at the power point, thread the rope and start climbing.
50 feet of webbing IF the tree is no more than 20 something feet from the cliffs edge. Also, that will be 100 feet of weebing needed.50 feet needed for each anchor...Another way to do it IF you are using webbing is to to NOT "loop" it around a tree, but instead, use a single strand of 1' webbing around the tree. Water knot a single strand around the tree, and have the other end hang over the cliffs edge, do the same with another 50 foot peice of webbing on another tree and hang it over the cliffs edge. Take the two pieces that are hanging over the cliffs edge and put them side by side and tie a figure eight knot and hang two biners in the loop of the figure eight for your masterpoint. This way you can run that webbing a lot longer distanace instead of doubling it up in half by looping it. You can also equalize it easier with the figure eight knot in it........
|
|
|
|
|
kobaz
Aug 24, 2006, 8:06 PM
Post #15 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2004
Posts: 726
|
In reply to: Water knot a single strand around the tree, and have the other end hang over the cliffs edge.......You can also equalize it easier with the figure eight knot in it........
How exactly do you water knot a single strand... other than tying an overhand? For attaching a single strand around a tree you should tie a figure 8. I find it's a lot easier to adjust the length of a loop with a water knot than monkeying with a figure 8, unless your not doing what I think you are.
Just curious, are you suggesting tying a figure 8 on a bight for power point?
|
|
|
|
|
tradalltheway
Aug 25, 2006, 1:14 AM
Post #16 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2004
Posts: 133
|
I think everyone's over complicating a task that only requires 10 feet of bailing twine, two quick-clips, and a death wish.
...all hail King Darwin.
|
|
|
|
|
jr05
Aug 25, 2006, 5:46 PM
Post #17 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2006
Posts: 16
|
In reply to: In my opinion, a static line is the best way for a beginner to set up a TR. Tie off to one tree (bowline, figure-8, double-8), two bunny ears for the power point with two lockers, cordolette and a coupla biners for the other side.
Why would you tie a bowline when you could use a friction hitch around a tree and lose 0 strength?? I agree with the figure 8 on the other end as long as you are talking about a follow through figure 8...and always back it up with a fisherman's knot to be safe.
|
|
|
|
|
knudenoggin
Aug 25, 2006, 6:59 PM
Post #18 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 6, 2004
Posts: 596
|
In reply to: Why would you tie a bowline when you could use a friction hitch around a tree and lose 0 strength?? I agree with the figure 8 on the other end as long as you are talking about a follow through figure 8...and always back it up with a fisherman's knot to be safe.
I'm guessing that "friction h. around a tree" you do NOT mean e.g. tying a Prusik
h. to the tree :o but what's called "Tensionless h.", which consumes a lot
of rope so as to have its friction vs. object reduce force upon the ultimate
end knot (if even knotted!).
Well, because excess strength is irrelevant, that's why; efficiency in set-up with both
time & materials is more so.
As for the "Fig.8 follow through" backed up, there too is a waste of T&M;
rather, one Fig.8, tied in the bight, with the other end running to the 2nd anchor,
is more practical.
In reply to: The advantage of 1 inch webbing for toprope setups is that when you have movement of the anchor components upon the rock. With 1 inch webbing the abrasion will be spread out over a large surface area compared to the smaller cord.
as tape exposes much of its load-bearing fibres to abrasion. And esp. in any
lateral movement over some sharp/cutting edge, I'd see tape more likely to be
severely cut than rope.
The choice of materials is better made based upon what your broader climbing
regimen is: if you intend to do a lot of TR, without great weight-carrying concerns,
then having a long bit (or two less-long bits, to distribute carrying ...) of rope
makes sense, as you'll spare the connection & configuring concerns associated
with joining multiple pieces of tape & cordelette & 'biners.
In reply to: ... it really says something when you have to ask, and on the internet at that about an anchor setup. I'm gonna recommend that you really find a guide or a highly competitent climber to teach you ...
This sort of admonition often appears, and I cannot buy it: why can one think
that some "competent" person knows the Trvth and the advice given on-line is,
ipso facto, dubious?! --even though many such competent folks frequent the on-line
forums and voice opinions, and many of those deemed incompetent yet live under
titles that someone might at least naively take as sufficient credentials for advising!
Here, at least, a variety of opinions will see light AND some iterative critiquing,
giving the advisee some perspective about them.
(Recall that one often sees advice to go read some book, yet when auther
Craig Connally espoused some of his book's ideas in RC.com he was challenged
by many other contributers. Better for the advisee to see those ideas in the
light of this forum than in isolation in the book.)
*kN*
|
|
|
|
|
reno
Aug 25, 2006, 11:49 PM
Post #19 of 20
(2839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
|
In reply to: In reply to: ... it really says something when you have to ask, and on the internet at that about an anchor setup. I'm gonna recommend that you really find a guide or a highly competitent climber to teach you ... This sort of admonition often appears, and I cannot buy it: why can one think that some "competent" person knows the Trvth and the advice given on-line is, ipso facto, dubious?!
Because it's easy to lie about one's credentials on a web forum. Tougher to do so in the real world.
Also, it's easier to do hands-on practice in the real world, whereas this forum lends itself to imagination and posting two-dimensional pictures.
Thirdly, getting instant feedback, and having an opportunity for question/answer sessions are much easier to do with a live guide rather than with a guy named "R0ckClYmb3r515" who only logs on twice a week.
BUt hey.... if learning about climbing on a website is your thing, then knock yourself out, baby.
|
|
|
|
|
deleted
Deleted
Aug 27, 2006, 9:37 PM
Post #20 of 20
(1531 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
[quote:02807ea355="jr05"]Static rope can be used to create excellent anchors as well, and probably much faster. I am just used to webbing and cordelette and do not have a large static rope I carry when I climb. [b:02807ea355]Maybe we could get [/b:02807ea355][b:02807ea355]a diagram of a static rope setup on here as well. [/b:02807ea355] How does everybody like a basic static rope setup consisting of one end wrapped around a tree 4-5 times, then tied back the rope using a follow through figure 8 (or figure 8 and a biner...but then you risk somebody snagging it). Then tie two figure 8 for the PP and finally tie the other end of the rope to the second tree by going around it and using a follow through 8.
As for the "magic x" it definately could be used, but I prefer the figure 8 since equalization with changes in load direction isn't necissary for most TRing applications.[/quote:02807ea355]
How about something like this. The tree to the right is with a tensionless wrap and tied with a figure 8 follow through. The tree on the left is tied with a bowline. The master point is a super 8 on a bight (double loop 8). This is easy to adjust and the trees can be quite some distance from the cliffs edge... One 80 foot rope and two biners for the anchor is all that you need.
[img:02807ea355]http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l88/fmd_2006/f9db50fe.jpg[/img:02807ea355]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
