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climbinginchico
Sep 5, 2006, 2:46 AM
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I work at a shop that sells climbing gear, and have been playing with the smaller Trango flexcams a lot lately. I like the direct offset design, and recently had an inspiration:
Would you guys be interested if Trango made hybrid small flexcams, a la hybrid aliens (without the gear failures!)? I personally would take trango's known attentiveness to details and reputation for customer service and reliability over CCH's recent SNAFU's. They'd probably be cheaper and more available too! Maybe if we get enough people interested Trango would consider making some to judge the marketability...
Comments? Flames? :)
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anykineclimb
Sep 5, 2006, 3:57 AM
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with Metolius coming out with offset TCUs, I can see both sides:
Con:
Now there are three companies making offsets in an already small market, does it justify ANOTHER maker?
Pro:
Hey! these offsets sure are popular!! Trango better get on the bandwagon! :wink:
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climbinginchico
Sep 5, 2006, 4:09 AM
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Steve,
Metolius, CCH, and who else for the offsets? I thought WC stopped making hybrids? Though something in the back of me head is saying "hybrid zeroes!!" No?
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anykineclimb
Sep 5, 2006, 4:11 AM
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Doesn't Wild Country still make offset friends?
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climbinginchico
Sep 5, 2006, 4:13 AM
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They stopped a couple years ago, I believe...
EDIT to my previous post: I thought WC stopped making hybrids? Though something in the back of me head is saying "hybrid zeroes!!" No?
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andypro
Sep 5, 2006, 4:36 AM
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In reply to: with Metolius coming out with offset TCUs, I can see both sides:
How in the hail would a hybrid TCU work? Or is it gonna be the FCU's? I'm honestly thoroughly confused.
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anykineclimb
Sep 5, 2006, 5:57 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: with Metolius coming out with offset TCUs, I can see both sides: How in the hail would a hybrid TCU work? Or is it gonna be the FCU's? I'm honestly thoroughly confused.
this help Andy?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=77073
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andypro
Sep 5, 2006, 12:05 PM
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Huh. I cant help but think that having two lobes one size and the third larger would lend to instability... I dont think Metolius would do it if that were the case though.
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jimdavis
Sep 6, 2006, 12:27 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: with Metolius coming out with offset TCUs, I can see both sides: How in the hail would a hybrid TCU work? Or is it gonna be the FCU's? I'm honestly thoroughly confused. this help Andy? http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=77073
That makes me realllllly uneasy...I don't think I'd climb over those anytime soon.
Anyone else with me on this one?
Jim
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timm
Sep 6, 2006, 12:45 AM
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I already have two sets of the WC Offset Friends as well as a set of hybrid aliens. They work great for flared cracks. I think that Trango could fill a niche if they would make something larger than the smaller sizes that CCH already offers... something about the size of a #1.0/#1.5 and #1.5/#2.0 Friend would be great since WC is no longer making them. (But maybe WC is no longer making them as there really was never a big market for them.)
I would think that the 3 cam hybrids/offsets would be unstable whereas the 4 cam hybrids/offsets seem pretty stable in my usage.
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j_ung
Sep 6, 2006, 1:38 AM
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Just curious, timm and jim... what about those makes you feel uneasy or that they're inherently unstable? (And bear in mind, those are not production models. Offset TCUs are still in prototype.)
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timm
Sep 6, 2006, 2:03 AM
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In reply to: Just curious, timm and jim... what about those makes you feel uneasy or that they're inherently unstable? (And bear in mind, those are not production models. Offset TCUs are still in prototype.)
Good question. My thinking is as follows ...
In a flared crack, the cam surfaces do not completely contact the rock surface. For the 3 cam offsets, there will only be one cam contacting the rock on one side of the crack and that cam face will only partially contact the rock surface. You still have the same problem with the 4 cam offsets but at least you have two cams contacting the rock surface on each side of the crack rather than one (for the middle cam) and there is more symmetric loading of the cam faces. My fear for the 3 cam offset would be that middle cam won't get enough purchase and causing the unit to slide perpendicular (sp?) to the force applied to the unit. It just really comes down to the amount of cam metal on the rock face in a flared crack.
But, since I don't have any of the prototypes, this thinking is all hypothetical and I could be totally wrong. Just my $0.02.
I'd be interested in hearing more about the units from folks that have used them.
Attention Metolius ... I'd be more than happy to put TCU offsets prototypes thru their paces at Josh this fall/winter :wink:
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holdplease2
Sep 6, 2006, 2:09 AM
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Hi Guys:
As a "booty crew member" I'm lucky enough to have a set of these hybred TCUs...the very cams in the pic...and will be testing them over the next month.
Oddly, I don't climb on any TCUS, other than the orange one which fits a particular size of pin scar perfectly. This is because I don't like having only three lobes of contact, and only one lobe on that one side. I also don't climb on U-stem cams, as a matter of preference.
So these things aren't going to get an automatic stamp of approval, thats for sure!
That said: In the instances where only three lobes of contact are possible (certain pin scars) I'd rather have a balanced pull on three lobes than three of four lobes in the crack with the stem off center towards the outside of the scar.
-Kate.
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brent_e
Sep 6, 2006, 2:34 AM
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Timm,
what what you're trying to say is that you think they should angle the contact surfaces of the cam to get more contact area???
seems like an interesting idea.
Brent
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jimdavis
Sep 6, 2006, 3:02 AM
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In reply to: Just curious, timm and jim... what about those makes you feel uneasy or that they're inherently unstable? (And bear in mind, those are not production models. Offset TCUs are still in prototype.)
It's a few things...first off, I have never cared for TCU's. I don't like how they pivot, and just in general consider them an inferior option to 4cu's. I'm sure that'll stir things up more flames than I care to deal with, but it's my opinion.
Regarding offsets: I don't own a set, and haven't placed them. I can certainly see their use, however.
Here's my issue, hopefully I can explain it.
When I think about a flaring placement, let's take a pure example. Lets consider an even continuous vertical flare, one with smooth polished sides. Lets also say our direction of pull is directly downward (perpindicular to the crack).
When you place a 4cu offset in it...your lobe contact will be on the inside edge of each of the 4 independant lobes. As you load the cam, it begins to exert some outward force. Because of the angle at which the cam intersects the flare, some of that force will not go purely outward into the crack, but rather attempt to push the cam out of the crack.
An analogy: Open a door at some odd angle, then take a pen or something and push it directly perpindicular to the door frame. Despite the fact that your pushing directly in, the pen will want to skate off to the hinge (outside of flare).
So, to some extent, we have this force attempting to push our cam out of the crack. We're relying on the fritional qualities of the cam material, and the angle of offset/ angle of flare, to hold our cam in place.
With a 4cu...we can try and find some flat spots on the flare to seat the cam lobes to minimize this force, and attempt to exert ALL of the cam's force in the outward direction. This is because the contact with the lobes is now in the center of the lobes (or close to it) rather than on each inside edge of each lobe.
So, no we have the TCU...and the same inherent problem. IF we can find flat spots for our placement to seat the lobes (directing the force purely outwards with central lobe contact) then we solve the problem...but what if we can't? Then we're back to loading the inside edge of each lobe. IMO this is the problem with the design.
Consider where this contact will be on the TCU. Here's a crude diagram:
.....1
.....|
.....|...............3
X----______----X
.................|
.................2
X is the axle heads, the vertical lines and numbers= the points of cantact for each lobes, all at different lengths to accomidate the flare.
Look at the distance between point 1 and 2...that's a large gap between each point of force on the axle...to me that seems like a easy way to bend an already small/ weak axle. The forces are far enough apart that it now seems like your trying to bend the axles, rather than shear them with a standard 4cu's mechanism. Know what I mean?
I'm sure I'm missing something, or that Metolious has anticipated this....but it still makes my butthole pucker up...and that's enough for me right now.
Happy to discuss this furthor if anyone wants to...I'm sure I still have a lot to learn about cam physics.
Cheers,
Jim
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jimdavis
Sep 6, 2006, 3:04 AM
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In reply to: Timm, what what you're trying to say is that you think they should angle the contact surfaces of the cam to get more contact area??? seems like an interesting idea. Brent
HAHA, that's an idea, see above!
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j_ung
Sep 6, 2006, 3:31 AM
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Hmm... I see your points. I'm curious to see hear how vegastradguy does with his set.
But then... I'm not likely to be purchasing any set of hybrids/offsets anytime soon. I haven't had a burning need for them in the last 20 years, and I doubt I'll drop the coin all of a sudden, just because there's a new game in town.
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angry
Sep 6, 2006, 3:52 AM
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What if they built and intermediate size lobe? Say the inner lobe is a 1 and the outer lobe is a 2, couldn't the middle lobe be something in between?
Or is this how they are doing it already?
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andypro
Sep 6, 2006, 4:45 AM
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In reply to: What if they built and intermediate size lobe? Say the inner lobe is a 1 and the outer lobe is a 2, couldn't the middle lobe be something in between?
That's how I was thinkin the best way to do it would be. Doesn't look like that's the case.
I can see them just kinda twisting in place (axis perpendicular to the axle) and sliding back out. Maybe a pin scar, but still.
The more I think of it, the OP's origional idea of the splitter offset is a kinda cool one, but it's such a niche market I would consider it more of a business gamble than anyhting else. Just my $0.02
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vegastradguy
Sep 24, 2006, 5:20 AM
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we'll see how the reviewer who is testing them likes them- i sent them to the Valley- no better place to test them than there. i'm hoping to get them on the front page around the time that Mountain Gear makes them available officially- which is just before the end of the year, i believe.
stay tuned!
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