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roughster
Sep 13, 2006, 2:05 AM
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stymingersfink
Sep 13, 2006, 2:59 AM
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yeah, lcc is such a choss-pile i don't know why anyone climbs there. in fact the best climbing in utah is the City of Rocks! :wink:
:P
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chalker7
Sep 13, 2006, 3:07 AM
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I feel you on half of your argument.
1) The "world class crag" comment:
I tend to find that you are correct, and in all honesty I tend to find that I am opposite. I actually like going to areas that are undeveloped and less traveled. It makes me feel like its almost "my" area to discover all on my own, which adds a strong spice of adventure. It is also almost guaranteed to be a challenging type of climbing because chances are that the reason its not world class is because the rock type, location, etc. doesn't cater to any mainstream techniques or styles.
2) The "picky community" argument:
In the four years that I have been climbing, the only place I've found large numbers of climbers like the ones you described is here. If you want to find the friendly supportive community you speak of head over here to the New River Gorge and hook up with j_ung and his crew. They're great, and there's tons more like them in that area. Overall I'd say 95% of the climbers I've met fit the tight community stereotype, but you are correct to some extent because I have also run into the elitest pricks that make me hate this site some days.
Just my observations, but my advice is to ignore me and go climb with real people that don't live behind usernames.
Peace.
Colby.
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dingus
Sep 13, 2006, 3:11 AM
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Good point roughster. But the poster asked about comparisons to the New and nothing in the *Bay Area* even remotely comes close. With a couple of minor exceptions every area suggested wasn't even in the bay area, but they didn't bother to tell the feller.
You don't even live in the Bay Area.
DMT
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davidji
Sep 13, 2006, 3:39 AM
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In reply to: You don't even live in the Bay Area.
For people who don't know, roughster has done an amazing amount of route development in California. Defensive of chossy crags? Maybe. But he's put a lot of time, $$, and effort into them. Made some good climbs too, although I've only climbed a few.
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mrtropy
Sep 13, 2006, 4:25 AM
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Glad to see your still around. I'll take you up up on the offer. After a couple of years of road and mt. biking I m try to get in more time climbing. Jeff
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jpdreamer
Sep 13, 2006, 7:26 AM
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I've been wanting to try whitewater kayaking. Surfing too, but at least there are classes for that and places to rent gear. How did you get into the sport (I assume) without owning a kayak?
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norushnomore
Sep 13, 2006, 8:59 AM
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Roughster, you have been promising us DTSA topo for a couple years now.
May be it's time to put one together and post it up instead of infinite discussions about potential sport climbing there.
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j_ung
Sep 13, 2006, 12:24 PM
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I think this is a good thread, roughster, though I'll echo some of the other comments in that I've found the real world of climbing to be way more supportive than the virtual. I always have to watch my back online. I only have to watch my front on the crag. FYI: the New isn't just about world-class rock. We bring the rivers, too. The New itself is fantastic, mostly low-consequence big water and... Gauley Season just started last weekend. :D
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dingus
Sep 13, 2006, 12:50 PM
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In reply to: I have lately been entertaining thoughts of showing people whats out there if you are willing to forgot what ya know and go exploring...
Right on roughster. Its something about your approach to climbing I've always appreciated. Its also something I pursue in my own way too. These days I would rather do something new in my own patches rather than visit Yosemite.
Spy a new crag area on a ridge. Figure a way up there. Check it out... oh MY! Work out the best way to get up there. Build a simple climbers trail. Invite in my mates. Let the games begin!
I know you don't like the bullshit of the internet arena. I know you're not alone. But there are small pockets, call them microforums, where most everyone knows everyone else in the world. Where the only things that get discussed are climbing related. Where the only words that are used are positive. No flame wars, no antagonism.
As soon as you bring in outsiders, people you don't know, you lose control of the situation. That may or may not be important to you these days, but its something to think about.
Cheers
DMT
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carabiner96
Sep 13, 2006, 2:13 PM
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Personally, all of my favorite crags are ghetto-fabulous, yo.
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hugin
Sep 13, 2006, 3:52 PM
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This is actually a big part of why I stopped climbing in Boulder 12 years ago.
I had a great partner, and a lot of fun, but when I'd go climbing with others, or just bouldering on my own, I'd run into way too much of the shitty elitist attitude that sucked the fun out of it. "Oh, you're only climbing 10b ... well *I* topped out this amazing 6.20dxx last night ... yeah ... it was pretty easy for me, but *you'd* never make it up." What I like about the sport is that I'm not competing with anyone but myself to get the send, and hanging out and climbing with a bunch of people like that turned me off. It was like being on the football team all over again, my coach yelling at me that I wasn't fast enough, rough enough, and that the other guy was going to roll over me (which literally happened in the last game I ever played).
What I realized much later was that I had Roger Briggs and a group of great guys learning from him in my back yard, and just never opened myself up to them. Ah well.
Going back this last year, here in SoCal, I've run into a lot less of that, and have actually been having fun when I go climb. I'm still defensive, though, because of my past experience, and the last session I spent at the Spot in Boulder, I wanted to punch half the people in there.
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markc
Sep 13, 2006, 4:01 PM
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I'm on the other side of the country, so I can't comment about the climbing scene in NoCal. However, I have had a number of discussions regarding climbing in my area with people considering relocating. When someone asks for information, I try to be as frank as possible. If anything, I will be more critical than normal. I don't want to paint an overly pretty picture that contributes to someone relocating if it leads to future disappointment. That's my unbiased take on the linked thread.
There are some crags in SW Pennsylvania and West Virginia that I'm very fond of, but they're something to do in between long weekends at destination spots like the New or Seneca. There is potential for new areas, but folks don't (and shouldn't) flock here for climbing opportunities. Regardless, when someone outside of Pittsburgh starts dumping on our local crags, I get defensive.
It seems ironic to me to complain about the lack of promotion or respect for local "lower status" crags, and to hint about your Double-Top-Secret-Area in the same thread. If you're keeping Shangri La in your pocket, can you complain when people don't notice it. Besides, it's nothing new for spots to flourish when development starts, only to see crowds drift elsewhere in time. Over the past two weekends, I've only run into one other party at what have been very popular spots. It doesn't make them bad crags, just not the hot spot, and certainly not world class. It still scratches the itch.
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dontmaytagme
Sep 13, 2006, 5:14 PM
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In reply to: [snip] Make the best of what you got. Some of my best days were spent with friends hiding under shrubs to avoid 110 degree heat in between burns on a 25 foot tall 3 bolt boulder. If you can't have fun at the local choss pile, IMO, it is more a statement about yourself than a statement about the quality of climbing. [snip]
Can someone make those lines sticky? Erm.. If it were only possible. In the same thought, from my locality, NE Ohio is the opposite of a 'destination' .. as much as Ohio is in general .. but .. Some of my best times are at the local choss pile.
For example.. thank irontendons for his contribution from an alternate post.. In reply to: ..Ohio has its charms, and it definitely doesn't need wankers like you (routemaster) pissing all over it.
I may have (temporarily) grown tired of it (Whipps) .. but.. it is the closest thing. It seems that people need to have world class destinations to support the integration of the crag into their world class ego. Sad really.
ja.
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dontmaytagme
Sep 13, 2006, 5:21 PM
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In reply to: [snip] Make the best of what you got. Some of my best days were spent with friends hiding under shrubs to avoid 110 degree heat in between burns on a 25 foot tall 3 bolt boulder. If you can't have fun at the local choss pile, IMO, it is more a statement about yourself than a statement about the quality of climbing. [snip]
Can someone make those lines sticky? In the same thought, from my locality, NE Ohio is the opposite of a 'destination' .. as much as Ohio is in general .. but .. Some of my best times are at the local choss pile. When the kids start to trash it, of course I get defensive.
For example.. thanking irontendons for his contribution in an alternate thread.. In reply to: ..Kicking on Ohio... ...Ohio has its charms, and it definitely doesn't need wankers like you (routemaster) pissing all over it.
I may have (temporarily) grown tired of it (Whipps) .. but.. it is the closest thing. It seems that people need to have world class destinations to support the integration of the crag into their world class ego. Sad really.
ja.
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zeke_sf
Sep 13, 2006, 6:34 PM
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Hear hear! I've personally driven many hours to the NorCal "choss" piles aforementioned, and usually had a great time. It all depends on what you're willing to do. No, you're not the local to a "world class" destination here, but I know two guys from Indiana that consider themselves locals at RRG in Kentucky--despite the 6 hour drive every weekend. And if you're willing to drive 6 hours in the Bay Area you have access to some of the best world class destinations around (trad/sport).
Unfortunately, it's true that many people in this forum get caught up in the rarefied air of prickhood. Most of those people are probably way more chill in person, and the ones that aren't can stuff a moldy burrito in their bad place :lol:
I second less whining about what this area is or isn't and more climbing!
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puerto
Sep 13, 2006, 8:18 PM
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That's precisely one of the coolest things about climbing: you can get your adrenaline (C9H13NO3) fix at pretty much any crag...
No waiting for just the right conditions like the big swells in surfing, etc..
Though when you're gripped sometimes you wonder why the hell you do this to yourself..
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vincentprice
Sep 13, 2006, 10:13 PM
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I don't know what experiences you've had with climbers in real life, or if you're basing this on internet forums. If it's the latter, I think you might be a little off. In real life, climbers I've come across are for the most part awesome, supportive, fun to climb with, and welcoming of anyone else who climbs. The problem with judging climbers as a whole by what people are posting in forums is that regular posters represent a very small portion of climbers.
A lot of people in here spend WAY more time reading and posting about climbing than actually climbing. So they have time to argue the sport's intricacies while sitting in their office jobs. The rest of us just climb and have fun doing it without worrying about what the "community" (i.e. not really the community at all, just the ones who spend a lot of time on computers) has to say about what they're doing.
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vincentprice
Sep 13, 2006, 10:14 PM
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I don't know what experiences you've had with climbers in real life, or if you're basing this on internet forums. If it's the latter, I think you might be a little off. In real life, climbers I've come across are for the most part awesome, supportive, fun to climb with, and welcoming of anyone else who climbs. The problem with judging climbers as a whole by what people are posting in forums is that regular posters represent a very small portion of climbers.
A lot of people in here spend WAY more time reading and posting about climbing than actually climbing. So they have time to argue the sport's intricacies while sitting in their office jobs. The rest of us just climb and have fun doing it without worrying about what the "community" (i.e. not really the community at all, just the ones who spend a lot of time on computers) has to say about what they're doing.
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slablizard
Sep 13, 2006, 11:29 PM
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In reply to: I don't post much around these parts, or Hell even any parts anymore, but I do read the occasional thread. A particular thread caught my interest the other day Northern California / Bay Area and I read it expecting the worst only to have my expectations fully fulfilled. Why do climbers collectively as a group have this overwhelming desire to slag anything that is not a world class destination? Why is it that so few areas host so many people, and yet so many more obscure areas sit idle with great routes and more to offer then people give them credit for?
Hey Rough...welcome back, personally I miss your presence, so glad you found the time to post.
I don't feel the need to slag local crags, or sound snobby, it is just that if you climbed around you tend to form an opinion about what is average, what is good and what is unforgettable.
I saw incredible climbing places, mostly in Europe, since I spent 2/3 of my life there, and there's just no match, quality and quantity wise. Yes there are areas around here with maybe one or few very good climbs, but like in Owens the location is so uninspiring, despite the climbs being good, that it's just not something you would put in a book. Or other crags with very nice spots but just a handful of routes...
As for the climbing community being supportive, well in my experience one thing is the web, one totally different thing are people in person. I don't judge people for what they write here..this is the web, pretty much anything goes...
In reply to: As for the thread which instigated this rambling: There is more to the NorCal / Bay Area than meets the eye. Is any of it world class? Nah... but its closer than you think, and the potential is staggering for those willing to hike more than 2 miles. So to tantrikclimber, forget the naysayers. Make the best of what you got. Some of my best days were spent with friends hiding under shrubs to avoid 110 degree heat in between burns on a 25 foot tall 3 bolt boulder. If you can't have fun at the local choss pile, IMO, it is more a statement about yourself than a statement about the quality of climbing.
Good point...frankly I do manage to have fun, but that does not improve the poor quality of the rock somewhere the heinous approach somewhere else or the too small dimensions of the crag. Bay Area just doesn't have the amount of rock needed for a "world Class climbing crag"
some examples:
http://www.mikedoyle.ca/...otos/ceuse_part2.jpg
Ceuse, France, Literally Miles of limestone
http://www.mikedoyle.ca/...tos/anabolica_07.jpg
Pure limestone, not choss.
http://www.planetmountain.com/.../falesie/052/052.jpg
Grotti, near Rome
http://www.planetmountain.com/.../falesie/086/086.jpg
Buoux, France
http://www.coronn.com/...nale/images/etta.JPG
Finale, Italy
http://static.flickr.com/...4_5e59b8924d.jpg?v=0
Verdon, France
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climbtech_108
Sep 15, 2006, 1:21 PM
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There is a guy that goes to our gym in FL ( I don't want to name names) and to be fair I have not seen him there in about 6 months, but this idiot somehow found a way to unwaveringly be every climbers personal coach. I swore if you fell of any route or bouldering problem then he was running full steam for the wall to "show you how its done" it really detoured alot of people and I think management gave the hint he is not welcome so we don't see much of him anymore.
My point goes back to the "one bad apple" theory. Most climbers are polite well to do people with supportive attitudes then a certain % are these guys. I think as with anything that is becoming mainstream or popular there will be these posers attempting to hog unnecessary spotlight time.
You will notice although I've been here a while, I don't post all that much. I mostly read threw the technical threads. This site is a mixed back of very good experienced climbers and less good climbers accepting of anyones help and again there are a few....er..maybe more then a few, on this site that are e-bully's.
Either way don't let those types bring down your fun.
-H
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