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blueeyedclimber
Sep 21, 2006, 3:20 PM
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In reply to: Misleading? How so? Of course you can't use a reverso on autoblock to belay a leader, I never said nor implied that.
You may not have wanted to imply it, but given the context ot the discussion, it WAS implied. Someone who doesn't know any better could easily have taken from it that a Reverso is an autblocking device in any context. Information should be given to help the original poster, and although I don't know if it is totally irrelevant, it was misleading because I thought the same thing Gabe did.
Josh
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cracklover
Sep 21, 2006, 3:26 PM
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In reply to: Check out this thread for some good info on belaying. It is seven pages so you may have to weed through, but it might be worth it. http://rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=115766&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=0 Just remember rule #1 of belaying which was pointed out in that thread: Catch Every Fall! If you don't, NOTHING else matters. Josh
Yup, excellent thread! And you can stop reading after around page 5.
GO
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cracklover
Sep 21, 2006, 3:38 PM
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In reply to: Irrelevant? Hardly! In the context of the recent discussion. I was just pointing out the difference between an autolocking(blocking) device and a standard friction multiply
The context of the recent discussion was catching leader falls on new thin rope. As such, the auto-locking characteristics of the reverso for top-belaying are irrelevant.
Josh pretty much covered why it was misleading.
In fact, your post was also borderline dangerous advice, because unless you add a second biner and/or use gloves, the chances of losing control of the rope when trying to catch a long fall on a skinny rope go up if you use a reverso, compared to any other belay device (or munter hitch) I'm aware of.
In short, terrible advice for a guy who's already having a hard time catching longish leader falls.
One other device that's worth considering and hasn't been mentioned yet is the TRE Sirius. It is, as Mal put it so well, a "braking assist" device.
GO
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patto
Sep 21, 2006, 4:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Irrelevant? Hardly! In the context of the recent discussion. I was just pointing out the difference between an autolocking(blocking) device and a standard friction multiply The context of the recent discussion was catching leader falls on new thin rope. As such, the auto-locking characteristics of the reverso for top-belaying are irrelevant. Josh pretty much covered why it was misleading. In fact, your post was also borderline dangerous advice, because unless you add a second biner and/or use gloves, the chances of losing control of the rope when trying to catch a long fall on a skinny rope go up if you use a reverso, compared to any other belay device (or munter hitch) I'm aware of. In short, terrible advice for a guy who's already having a hard time catching longish leader falls. One other device that's worth considering and hasn't been mentioned yet is the TRE Sirius. It is, as Mal put it so well, a "braking assist" device. GO
SIGH!!!
"In fact, your post was also borderline dangerous advice"
Since when did I try to give advice? I never gave advice, I never said that the Reverso is great at catching 60foot leader falls on skinny ropes. I gave my opinion about MY use of the device.
All I said, and I quote: "Auto block devices like the Reverso I would be happy to trust my life to. I believe these only start to fail when the core starts to strip off the rope!!"
An autoblocked reverso will pretty much NOT slip. That is fact. Tests show that failure occurs when the sheath of the road itself starts to tear. Considering how an autoblocked reverso is used this is MORE than strong enough.
Of course a autoblocked reverso can't belay a leader. I never said as such so I don't know why you are twisting my words.
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jack_daw
Sep 21, 2006, 6:03 PM
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I learned the following:
Grip the rope at about 1m away from the belay device when a fall happens. Hold it tight and allow it to slip through the belay device, gradually slowing it down so that your hand will stop with a safety margin to the belay device.
In addition you can use your bodyweight to absorb some energy.
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svilnit
Sep 21, 2006, 6:07 PM
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:shock:
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jt512
Sep 21, 2006, 7:25 PM
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In reply to: I learned the following: Grip the rope at about 1m away from the belay device when a fall happens. Hold it tight and allow it to slip through the belay device, gradually slowing it down so that your hand will stop with a safety margin to the belay device. In addition you can yous your bodyweight to absorb some energy.
I think you meant to write, "Yous can use your bodyweight...".
Jay
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toejam
Sep 21, 2006, 7:48 PM
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I've heard a few people (including myself) complain about the beal 10.2 dry ropes and how slick they are when brand new. One nearly lost control of a lower and now runs them through a belay device several times to prepare them for use.
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 21, 2006, 8:28 PM
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In reply to: SIGH!!! All I said, and I quote: "Auto block devices like the Reverso I would be happy to trust my life to. I believe these only start to fail when the core starts to strip off the rope!!" An autoblocked reverso will pretty much NOT slip. That is fact. Tests show that failure occurs when the sheath of the road itself starts to tear. Considering how an autoblocked reverso is used this is MORE than strong enough. Of course a autoblocked reverso can't belay a leader. I never said as such so I don't know why you are twisting my words.
We are not arguing with the content of what you said but the context in which it was used. I use a reverso for a variety of different things, belaying a second being one of them. BUT, this thread was not referring to belaying a second, but belaying a leader and catching a leader fall.
You are right, an autblocked reverso will not slip. I have taken my brake hand off in this mode with no worries. You never said that you can belay a leader in autoblock mode, but bringing up the autblock function in a discussion about belaying a leader without fully explaining what you meant or the purpose of why you brought it up misleads people who don't know any better. Gabe and I, among others, know what you meant, but this is the beginners forum, and you should be prepared to have your advice or random thoughts questioned if they are thought to be detrimental to those who read them.
Josh
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udaho
Sep 21, 2006, 8:41 PM
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Hey, we all make mistakes. I'm currently sporting a lovely little blood-blister on my hand from when I was holding the brake side too close to the ATC. My partner fell, and away the rope went into the ATC :shock: . It wasn't so much the friction of the rope, but the rope along with my glove and hand getting pulled in that stopped that sucker from slipping. I got away with learning a big lesson from a little slap on the wrist. :roll:
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patto
Sep 21, 2006, 11:47 PM
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In reply to: We are not arguing with the content of what you said but the context in which it was used. I use a reverso for a variety of different things, belaying a second being one of them. BUT, this thread was not referring to belaying a second, but belaying a leader and catching a leader fall. You are right, an autblocked reverso will not slip. I have taken my brake hand off in this mode with no worries. You never said that you can belay a leader in autoblock mode, but bringing up the autblock function in a discussion about belaying a leader without fully explaining what you meant or the purpose of why you brought it up misleads people who don't know any better. Gabe and I, among others, know what you meant, but this is the beginners forum, and you should be prepared to have your advice or random thoughts questioned if they are thought to be detrimental to those who read them. Josh
Thanks Josh. I accept your point. :) Maybe I should have mentioned that autoblock is not for lead belaying. However I don't agree that the information was misleading, irrelevant or terrible advice. That is why I debated the point. Anyway I think we have made our points... :)
In reply to: I've heard a few people (including myself) complain about the beal 10.2 dry ropes and how slick they are when brand new. One nearly lost control of a lower and now runs them through a belay device several times to prepare them for use.
That is the rope that I have! Yes it certainly is quite slick. But still not as much as the <10mm floss ropes.
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omegaprime
Sep 22, 2006, 2:01 AM
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We have a nice and civilized discussion going on here. Nice.
But we seem to have gone off track. I have yet to see the OP come back to us on what belay device he's using and the rope diameter, I'm curious about it also. Maybe you guys scared him off. :wink:
So, OP, any update for us?
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dptaylor
Oct 3, 2006, 4:47 AM
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Sorry... Life is crazy, I've only had moments to check the forum in the last couple of weeks. The rope was a new dry 10.2 I believe, and I was using a standard ATC. I'm looking into a new device like the newer generation atc, any info on those? I've heard they're better than the one I'm using now.
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dennyg
Oct 3, 2006, 11:00 AM
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you know, I went threw this scenario sometime back. Better then, Then when I'm flying bye my belay-er and wondering if she can hold mee !
I'm sorry if I repeating what others have said. But, I think it's important.
The new xp that u speak of, is good for a leader belaying. what u may need is a device that catches more friction. V notches are a good idea. But friction is the key word. at times, I may carry two belay device's.
I'm thinking rapping on single 8.6. I'm thinking, That Fat ass I'm belaying. and the scenario's go on...
Take nothing for granted
Dress for success...
In your case, "Gloves" maybe a Very good idea. I do luv the smell of leather and lace. I maybe getting soft in my old age. But, I've been pushing gloves with my female partners and me as well. Hay, and they keep your hands clean ! warm and how about that occupational hand jam. Food for thought, I would think. Fingerless at times and full metal jacket at others. sometimes u just can't have enough stuff clipped to ur harness. and they will help with the "slippage" factor !
back to that fat ass
If I'm belaying someone 40 lbs. my senior. I'm scared. maybe not. Butt, I'm thinking hard, I maybe dropping in a directional. so he's not pulling me off my Ready possession. Which izz, hanging in my harness. My fat ass is thi "anchor". Gezz, I am a good anchor.
another belay technique to think about is a Mutter hitch...yeah, yeah, yeah. but it's something to think about.
Thinking is the key word. Always "Thinking" about what is going on. It will be your best defence in any case.
Granted...I'm not doing any one thing, at any one time. Hell, sometimes that leader is the last thing on my mind. oops, maybe I shouldn't of said that. But if there is a pretty flower by...bye...seya wouldn't want to be ya
so what do we have hear. Friction, Gloves and da brain. Like I said, none of which I use at any one time. But these things run threw my mind from time to time.
Hope this helps. now I need a little rest. Been working that brain overtime.
oh, one thing I failed to mention. I'm not a sporty kinda guy. and I'm sur clipping bolt's is different.
But, I'm not Always pushing my Limit's. get my drift.
anchor's away...
boy that was fun. Thanks !
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ja1484
Oct 3, 2006, 11:40 AM
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Another simple method for increasing friction on a belay or rappell is to add additional carabiners in the setup. Try belaying sometime with the rope run around 3 carabiners and then back on the ATC (guide). You probably wouldn't have trouble locking off a chevy.
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dptaylor
Oct 3, 2006, 4:41 PM
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In reply to: Another simple method for increasing friction on a belay or rappell is to add additional carabiners in the setup. Try belaying sometime with the rope run around 3 carabiners and then back on the ATC (guide). You probably wouldn't have trouble locking off a chevy.
So would you put it through the ATC like normal and then feed the rope through an additional carabener after the ATC??? Or am I misunderstanding???
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dptaylor
Oct 3, 2006, 5:42 PM
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I also wanted to say thanks for everyone's input, the reading here has gotten me confused, straightened out, confused again, and ultimately informed enough to sort everything out. Since no one really seems to agree on much of anything here, except it's a bad situation, I guess I should give everyone an idea of what's happening now:
I am not one to place blame elsewhere. I know I was at fault, and I know I have a lot to learn. That's why I started this thread. So for those of you who are worried about giving advise to someone who doesn't think they made a mistake, worry not. I think I agree with many of you who think I may not have been locked off fully: I don't remember everything clearly, both my climber and I were in a state of shock after the fall. He and I have talked about what happened since, and he decided he needs to communicate more with me when he is up there. As for my part, I know I am responsible for his safety at all times.
You well intentioned people have confused the hell out of me :shock: and then tried to straighten me out, but all joking aside, y'all have helped a lot. The advise and discussion has provided me with a lot of food for thought. Thank you all very much for your help in making me a safer belayer. :P
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cracklover
Oct 3, 2006, 6:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Another simple method for increasing friction on a belay or rappell is to add additional carabiners in the setup. Try belaying sometime with the rope run around 3 carabiners and then back on the ATC (guide). You probably wouldn't have trouble locking off a chevy. So would you put it through the ATC like normal and then feed the rope through an additional carabener after the ATC??? Or am I misunderstanding???
Where you normally have one locking biner, you have two. This is a very common way of increasing the friction. It's what I'd do if I were belaying someone significantly heavier than I am with an ATC, for example. I'd also do it if I were rapping with a small haul bag.
Does this make sense?
Of course, it is *not* a replacement for good belaying or rappelling technique. Bad technique makes it easier to lose control, no matter how high the friction. I'm not saying you do have bad technique. I wasn't there, so I don't know. But if you do, that's the first thing to fix, not the belay device, not the communication between you and your partner, and not the extra biner/more friction.
GO
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bill413
Oct 3, 2006, 6:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Another simple method for increasing friction on a belay or rappell is to add additional carabiners in the setup. Try belaying sometime with the rope run around 3 carabiners and then back on the ATC (guide). You probably wouldn't have trouble locking off a chevy. So would you put it through the ATC like normal and then feed the rope through an additional carabener after the ATC??? Or am I misunderstanding???
In the "normal" way to rig an ATC, you have the rope enter the device, loop around a biner, and then exit the device. The suggestion is to place another, or two more, biners exactly like that one that the rope loops around. The rope will now enter the device, loop around the three biners as if they were one single thick biner, and exit the device as before.
Hope that's clear.
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d3nni5
Oct 3, 2006, 6:14 PM
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There's some good advice in the posts above, apart from the person who suggests that rope cannot slip through a locked belay device. It's clear he has no idea what he's talking about.
My advice, if you're belaying people on sport routes, working projects and such like, is to invest in a Gri-gri. People love to shout down the Gri-gri as being useless and expensive. While they are a bit on the pricey side, they have a multitude of uses and it's the perfect device to have when standing around at the bottom of a sport route. Between my personal climbing, group work with kids in North Wales (I just moved here from the UK) and industrial roped access work, I literally wore out my first Gri-gri.
Check 'em out.
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