...

n the first place, we had an implicit attack - via a 14th century quotation - upon the intolerance and aggressiveness of one religion, delivered by the capo di tutti capi of the Roman Catholic church.

Did Ratzinger not envisage that many people might clear their throats and raise the rather obvious issue of the crusades by way of response? Should the head of an institution responsible for the death of several million people in religious wars not be reluctant to cast the first stone, so to speak, where intolerance is concerned? Apparently not.

...

Pakistani foreign ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam proffered the view - perfect in its circular absurdity - that "anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence."

Somali cleric Sheik Abubakar Hassan Malin told his followers that Ratzinger's remarks were "barbaric." The sullen sheik evidently knows something about barbarism, since he followed this description up with the recommendation that, "Whoever offends our Prophet Muhammad should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim."

...

Most major religions, including Islam and Christianity, derive their power from their claims to channel, articulate or otherwise illuminate God's will. The Bible and the Qur'an are, self-evidently, not considered by the faithful to be mere books. They are, instead, the word of God.

In a sense, then, the likes of Pat Robertson and the Somali sheik are merely following the precepts of their respective faiths.

...

All the talk in recent days about the importance of inclusiveness, respect and sensitivity is well-intentioned but misguided.

We should spend less time practicing "tolerance" of some religions and more time questioning all of them.

....so in terms of "Today"...meaning say the last 200 years give or take...where exactly did the Pope say to kill any muslum for refering to us as infidels? When exactly did the Catholics murder these millions? When have Catholics advocated death to anyone? Were anti death penalty for Gods sake. Equating Islam with Catholisism as the Twin Evils is like comparing The President of Iran and the Prsident of USA as equals in evil. If you can't see the difference between them...please....go live in Iran and become a Christian...write when you can.

Gods don't kill people. People with gods kill people. :P

Nice one. :)

Tell me which the nasty bits you're referring to, and maybe I can tell you the actual context it was said in. I don't claim to know the Quran very well start to end, but I never recall it telling people to kill the ALL the "infidels". :wink:

[8.36] Surely those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (people) from the way of Allah; so they shall spend it, then it shall be to them an intense regret, then they shall be overcome; and those who disbelieve shall be driven together to hell.
[8.37] That Allah might separate the impure from the good, and put the impure, some of it upon the other, and pile it up together, then cast it into hell; these it is that are the losers.
[8.38] Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.
[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

...

8.55] Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe.
[8.56] Those with whom you make an agreement, then they break their agreement every time and they do not guard (against punishment).
[8.57] Therefore if you overtake them in fighting, then scatter by (making an example of) them those who are in their rear, that they may be mindful.
[8.58] And if you fear treachery on the part of a people, then throw back to them on terms of equality; surely Allah does not love the treacherous.
[8.59] And let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape.
[8.60] And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
[8.61] And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
[8.62] And if they intend to deceive you-- then surely Allah is sufficient for you; He it is Who strengthened you with His help and with the believers
[8.63] And united their hearts; had you spent all that is in the earth, you could not have united their hearts, but Allah united them; surely He is Mighty, Wise.
[8.64] O Prophet! Allah is sufficient for you and (for) such of the believers as follow you.
[8.65] O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.

...

[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
[9.2] So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.
[9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

Actually, pretty much all of chapter 9...

...

[33.58] And those who speak evil things of the believing men and the believing women without their having earned (it), they are guilty indeed of a false accusation and a manifest sin.
[33.59] O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[33.60] If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist, We shall most certainly set you over them, then they shall not be your neighbors in it but for a little while;
[33.61] Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering.
[33.62] (Such has been) the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah.

...

[41.25] And We have appointed for them comrades so they have made fair-seeming to them what is before them and what is behind them, and the word proved true against them-- among the nations of the jinn and the men that have passed away before them-- that they shall surely be losers.
[41.26] And those who disbelieve say: Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.
[41.27] Therefore We will most certainly make those who disbelieve taste a severe punishment, and We will most certainly reward them for the evil deeds they used to do.
[41.28] That is the reward of the enemies of Allah-- the fire; for them therein shall be the house of long abiding; a reward for their denying Our communications.
[41.29] And those who disbelieve will say: Our Lord! show us those who led us astray from among the jinn and the men that we may trample them under our feet so that they may be of the lowest.
[41.30] (As for) those who say: Our Lord is Allah, then continue in the right way, the angels descend upon them, saying: Fear not, nor be grieved, and receive good news of the garden which you were promised.

...

[47.1] (As for) those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, He shall render their works ineffective.
[47.2] And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition.
[47.3] That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
[47.5] He will guide them and improve their condition.
[47.6] And cause them to enter the garden which He has made known to them.

So to sum up the article: everyone should stop tolerating religions because some of their members are intolerant and employ circular arguments? Aside from the obvious irony, it's not exactly the path of peace, is it?

Good.

I'll have to go back and verify what you've quoted, and maybe seek a better answer from someone much more knowledgeable. I'll get back to you once I have the answers.

Might take some time though. :wink:

Moderates, on the other hand, still retain the ability (though not necessarily the inclination) to apply their reasoning faculties to these areas. The article is a call to start helping these people along this path - to let them know that it is ok to question, and to help them understand that faith is not necessarily such a good thing.

How did I know that this would automatically get filed in your brain under "hate"? Read it again - I see precisely zero hatred there - just honest concern.

No offence, but I'm much more interested in your opinion.

Translations of the Qur'an

On this Web site, there are three translations of the Qur'an. Note that any translation of the Qur'an immediately ceases to be the literal word of Allah, and hence cannot be equated with the Qur'an in its original Arabic form. In fact, each of the translations on this site is actually an interpretation which has been translated.

[8.36] Surely those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (people) from the way of Allah; so they shall spend it, then it shall be to them an intense regret, then they shall be overcome; and those who disbelieve shall be driven together to hell.
[8.37] That Allah might separate the impure from the good, and put the impure, some of it upon the other, and pile it up together, then cast it into hell; these it is that are the losers.
[8.38] Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.
[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

8.55] Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe.
[8.56] Those with whom you make an agreement, then they break their agreement every time and they do not guard (against punishment).
[8.57] Therefore if you overtake them in fighting, then scatter by (making an example of) them those who are in their rear, that they may be mindful.
[8.58] And if you fear treachery on the part of a people, then throw back to them on terms of equality; surely Allah does not love the treacherous.
[8.59] And let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape.
[8.60] And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
[8.61] And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
[8.62] And if they intend to deceive you-- then surely Allah is sufficient for you; He it is Who strengthened you with His help and with the believers
[8.63] And united their hearts; had you spent all that is in the earth, you could not have united their hearts, but Allah united them; surely He is Mighty, Wise.
[8.64] O Prophet! Allah is sufficient for you and (for) such of the believers as follow you.
[8.65] O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.

This whole mess up is actually a result of some people not following the rules in interpreting the Quran. You just read it how you like for it to sound to you.

That's exactly the problem on all sides in the article.

Embarrassingly, I know almost nothing about the Quran, but as a result I know better than to copy-paste googled passages from it when I know nothing about their context.

:wink:

Moderates do question. They just don't come up with the answers you or the author of the article want them to.

I see someone ranting about "the lunacy that lurks at the heart of all organised religion", who believes that "extremism among religious people is not an aberration. It is the logical extension of their faith",

and that "inclusiveness, respect and sensitivity is well-intentioned but misguided".

As I said, the circular reasoning employed is amusing - criticism of intolerance from a man who thinks that inclusiveness, respect and sensitivity are the wrong way to go about things - but could hardly help the situation.

I know the author shares some of your views, but I really think that it's you that needs to re-read the article.

Is this inaccurate?

he's saying he's not going to just shut up for the sake of politeness any more. He's going to speak his mind, and is suggesting that others do the same.

If someone holds beliefs you find abhorrent, tell them so, rather than pretending the issue doesn't exist.

So, now down to business.


Get the background from here. Note: check out the last part on Subject: Problems of Jihad.

Before even reading the background, I could already guess the context for this one from what I can remember from my history lessons. Its saying those who do not believe will go to hell (which is done during judgment day). So, what's wrong with that? :wink:

Next:


Now, without reading the background again, I have concluded that this part informs us to be prepared for war. Heck, this is common sense to most people to get ready to defend yourself.

Children, there are a lot of bad people out there. :)

Next, when you read it with the context (the conflict going on at the time), then you can understand if better, and see why the language is as so.

I think I'll stop it here, and not go on to the other verses. Maybe you can check out the site I mentioned earlier and read the context/background, before we proceed further.

But then again, if you already have an idea set in your mind about certain things, this exercise would have been futile from the beginning, wouldn't it? :wink:

That's exactly the problem on all sides in the article.

Embarrassingly, I know almost nothing about the Quran, but as a result I know better than to copy-paste googled passages from it when I know nothing about their context.

:wink:

Hmm... I don't know. How about... everything? You're saying the simple act of not believing what somebody tells you is punishable not simply by death, but by everlasting torment afterwards? That's simply sick. It is, however, a very good way of getting people to do what you tell them to do - all a cleric has to do is say "your god tells you to do this" and no true believer would dare disobey.

It's not just saying that, though. The last verse is ordering, very clearly, to fight until there is no religion but Islam. It would take some pretty incredible "interpretation" to change the meaning of that.

"Interpret" all you want. Read as written, that is some nasty s--- right there.

Yes, it is. As is almost everything else you and the author have very selectively written about religion in this thread.

Unless, of course, they are religious. In which case he's very strongly against them speaking their minds regardless of politeness, which is the whole point of the article.

Uh, that's exactly what the very religious people this article's going after are doing.

If you're looking for hypocrisy, there's plenty right there.