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therelic
Sep 5, 2002, 2:52 AM
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At our local climbing area one of the climbers put up a 5.13a route. In the process he glued on a couple of holds and drilled some pockets on the upper half of the route. He then spray painted the rock so the glue and newly drilled rock would not be as obvious. He did this so the route would take advantage of a very exposed arête and make an exciting line. Of course the creator claimed the route was completely natural with no manufactured holds. After a somewhat heated exchange with climbers on Internet and many complaints from locals about the artificial holds someone has eliminated them. Many of us suspect the creator of the line is the person who removed the artificial holds. The route now goes at about 5.16+, unless you are a lizard or fly. My questions are; Is it now okay to de-bolt the upper half of the line and move it 8’ to the right avoiding the arête to a completely natural line that will probably go at about 5.13a/b? If this is done should the route name remain the same? Or should the line remain, as it is, a painted aid climb?
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philbox
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Sep 5, 2002, 3:09 AM
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Painted aid climb sounds like fun. Is there any way of climbing to the start of the completely natural line 8 feet to the right. You could well have a whole nuther new line there boyo. Yeah I`d leave the painted aid line alone for the hard core aid climbers and concentrate on putting up natural lines elsewhere that don`t require contrivance.
...Phil...
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billcoe_
Sep 5, 2002, 7:29 PM
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This happened in Oregon you say? I can't even spell shady cove where is it???? You got human beings living there too ya say?
Man, didn't think anybody could get up 5.13 around here. What color paint?
Maybe you should bolt a couple of aluminum ladders to the route, then downgrade it and rename it "improved abortion".
Talking to the origonal asentionist/abotionist about ethics should be on the agenda to.
Man, I thought I got hell for rap-bolting 1 entirly new pitch on an established route. I didn't chip, glue or alter anything either. (Broomed some moss off is all)
Turns out ground up is the law around here, and don't chip or glue anything or castration probably will be an issue.
Bill
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paintinhaler
Sep 5, 2002, 8:39 PM
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I think I would have shot the guy.
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rwaltermyer
Sep 5, 2002, 9:08 PM
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First of all...to answer the initial question, the rock of a route should never be tampered with. Now I'm all for scrubbing every molecule of moss off it to make it climbable. But chipping of glueing is just pathetic.
Second, the damage has been done, but stripping the bolts won't solve anything. I'd say leave em for when Sharma starts ascending 16s
Lastly, a bolted variation is found all over the US, especially 8 feet apart...
And for that guy...thats just pathetic.
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rocknalaska
Sep 5, 2002, 9:18 PM
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Personally, my opinion is that what's done is done. If there is a good natural line, bolt, clean and climb it. Otherwise leave off the route. 8 feet is a reasonable distance, so I wouldn't actually remove the old bolts. I would rename the new line.
That's what I think.
As to what should be done to the guys who drilled and painted, he should be tarred and feathered.
Todd
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jgill
Sep 6, 2002, 2:47 AM
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Try to put this abomination out of your mind. Move over eight feet, put up your route, and give it a fresh name.
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rwaltermyer
Sep 6, 2002, 2:08 PM
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I agree with jgill plus alaska's suggestion of the tar and feathering!!!!!
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machiavellian
Sep 6, 2002, 7:43 PM
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Dear Mr.TheRelic,
Personally, In putting up a new route I think the only time rock should be
removed is if it is a matter of safety and then the rock removal should only occur on sport routes. My reasoning for this philosophy is the area my Father and I put
in is mostly very chossy welded tuff. This means the area has death blocks on some lines but with the help of a crow bar they can be safely removed. Now for what might lie beneath the freshly removed death block, that is just left alone unless it is another death block. By these statements I am by no means saying I support chipping, gluing or other evil forms of rock modification, all I am saying is if it is done it should be for safety reasons ONLY.
I also think the only time spray paint can be used is if it is sprayed onto a
hanger or bolt BEFORE it is used on the rock. The only reason for this is to camouflage said hanger or bolt so they will not be seen from the ground. This is to keep from offending the non-climbers who use the area that might think the shiny silver clips are an eye sore.
As for the route eight feet to the right of the painted and chipped monstrosity, I say don’t put it in. Why? Because if I were climbing a nice route then looked over and saw the ugly scar of spray paint, chipping, ect... I would be so throughly disgusted with what was eight feet to my left I might loose my enthusiasm for the route I was on.
Climb Safe and Enjoy,
Machiavellian
[ This Message was edited by: machiavellian on 2002-09-06 12:48 ]
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killclimbz
Sep 6, 2002, 8:21 PM
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Sure, go ahead and bolt the new line. Just don't use any of the questionable practices done on the upper half of the original line.
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cclaytorus
Sep 6, 2002, 9:22 PM
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There is never an excuse to alter natural rock for our own purposes. Remember that a short 50 years ago, climbers would look at at wall and deem it not only unclimbable, but UN-AIDABLE (sorry, just made up a word there...)and now those routes are our 5.10 and 5.11 warm-ups. How would we feel now if htey had raped the cliffs and left for us all an infinite number of 5.8's and 5.9's? That was 50 years ago, now we have guys on-sighting 5.14. We have a free Nose on El Cap, and the first ascensionist just passed away. Just think where climbing will be 50 years from now...we can't even guess.
Clean it if you must, make it safe of course, but if you can't climb it, either get better or save it for your grandkids.
OK - I'll get off my soapbox now...
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rwaltermyer
Sep 6, 2002, 9:41 PM
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i dont know about that DEATH BLOCK policy...if you talking the size of a brick...yes, but anything bigger, leave it, use the crack around it or something, otherwise the daath block leaves a jug sized vacany in the rock, making the grade go form hard to easy.
I agree...who are we to tamper with the future of rock climbing...its so selfish to glue or modify rock so WE can climb it ALL.
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jds100
Sep 6, 2002, 10:26 PM
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I agree with the sentiment of "moving on", as far as establishing the new route, and naming whatever you want, with no regard necessary for the bastardized route 8 feet away.
I do think, however, that the bolts should be properly removed, and the holes filled and camouflaged. I don't know how to safely remove spray paint; you might check with a ranger of some park, and see if they've had to deal with removing grafitti. The idea is to not damage the rock and the environment any more than has already been done.
I also agree the guy who did this abomination is pathetic.
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caveman
Sep 6, 2002, 11:20 PM
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that should be illegal in crags or anywhere, I would have killed him! i't's never ok to do such an evil deed!!
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daisuke
Sep 6, 2002, 11:25 PM
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I'd say there is one situation where chipping or glueing holds is perhaps acceptable and that's on conglomerate rock, we have a few routes around here that are in the upper 13 or lower 14 ranges that have glued holds because it's simply impossible to climb them without them. and you can't trad or aid on conglomerate unless you drill holes every 3 feet which is probably worse than chipping the rock and glueing on holds.
any drill toting geek can climb like that, but it takes a real climber to do a 13!
D
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mtnjohn
Sep 6, 2002, 11:51 PM
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Chippin' and gluin' and paintin'
What the f**k?
I am now totally convinced that climbers have ruined climbing and are taking the beauty of the rock with it!
It seems like more and more I hear about this kind of shit.
Why stop at 5.13? Lets chip some fun 5.8s
or 5.6s
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paulc
Sep 7, 2002, 12:13 AM
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Randy;
I would think that you haven't climbed that many new routes. Death blocks are BAD, m'kay??? Anything that is loose and could potentially fall will eventually. It may take 50 years or it may take the 2nd ascent. It is the responsibility of the FA to ensure that anything that is loose is removed, so as to make the climb safer for others that follow. If it turns out the route is not 14a, but 10a then that is the way it is.
Case in point, last weekend, I knocked a loose block off a route from 20m up. It was about the size of the hood on your car. Now I would hate to see that fall out and land on anyones head just because the FA didn't bother to clean it, and now it won't. In this case the grade of the route is harder now than it was (was 10d, by the book, I disagree, but now is 11a/b probably b).
And Daisyduke, gluing I can see on conglomerate under extreme circumstances, chipping - NEVER!!! If you can't do it without chipping it shouldn't be done. If there is a loose hold that will make the route harder I figure that is fine too. Generally on comglomerate you have no limit to the choices of hand and footholds to use. Usually on a onsight attempt you end up spending more time figuring out what to use than actually climbing. If a hold falls out then there is a pocket left over, even if it sucks.
Just my opinion, not trying to get all over everyones case.
Paul
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daisuke
Sep 7, 2002, 8:11 AM
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I can't climb the 13's and I'm not the one doing the glueing, but it seems to be hard enough to justify the use of artificial holds
the guy that did that route tho seems to think he rules the world because one guy aided this roof around here, and then 2 weeks the glue-er guy glued holds on it so it could be freeclimbed... that I consider to be shite!
oh, and it's not daisyduke... I'm a guy
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josher
Sep 7, 2002, 3:35 PM
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related topic!
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=15657&forum=23
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rwaltermyer
Sep 8, 2002, 12:23 AM
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I CANT BELIEVE THAT ANYONE COULD JUSTIFY GLUEING! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU IDOITS?
I'm climbed conglom before and you let mother nature do the chipping, and find dished or just suck it up and use the FREAKIN pebbles.
I can't believe it. Who are you to justify glueing. Oh, I'm sorry you can't climb it. Get better! Train some more. I don't care if it a 13! What if you would have glued the route that Sharma sent as the worlds .15a? Oh, then YOU could climh. Well, I'm sorry but it's not your FREAKIN rock, so let it for the person that has the balls to climb it without CUSTOMIZING it for himself.
SO SINCE I CAN'T climb your 13 I'm gonna glue and chip to make it a 10 SO I CAN CLIMB IT. SO I CAN CLIMB IT. SO I CAN CLIMB IT!????
NO, THATS RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought RC.comers had some dignity. Now, I'm scratching my head. And furthermore, by endorsing GLUEING, you spread your approval to others--i.e. beginners. And it will contine to spread as IDIOTS continue to justify it FOR THEMSELF!
I'm going to go to the local gym with my own tool and make all the climbs perfect for ME, ME, ME! Thats what your telling me, and everyone else! Oh, I forgot, only in certain circumstances. That's after I've tried it twice, RIGHT?!
SELFISH. IGNORANT. STUPID. Pick your own adjective!
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daisuke
Sep 8, 2002, 1:39 AM
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blah blah... take the time and read my msgs, Im not endorsing glueing, I am merely stating when it might be acceptable, if at all...
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rwaltermyer
Sep 8, 2002, 7:43 PM
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but it seems to be hard enough to justify the use of artificial holds
THAT MYTH DOESN"T EXIST. WHO ARE YOU TO JUSTIFY. Frankly, how can just read about a conglom 13, and say GLUE IT. THATS CLASSLESS.
DON'T COME TO PA, PLEASE. GO GLUE HOLDS ON YOUR OWN BOULDERING WALL.
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jasonkester
Sep 9, 2002, 8:58 PM
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Quote:I don't care if it's a 13! What if you would have glued the route that Sharma sent as the worlds .15a?
Not to step on your rant here, but Biographie/Realization has glue on it. On the first hold in fact. Manufacturing sucks, but it's pretty common on hard routes.
As to glue reinforcement of conglomorate rock, it all depends. Smith has entire formations that would have fallen into the river if not for all the glue holding them together, yet is has its share of hard natural lines as well. You work with what you have.
Jason
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ajkclay
Sep 13, 2002, 5:39 AM
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8 feet?!! Over here, there would be a least three distinctive climbs in that sort of gap wherever possible. If you have to use the same start, bolt the variant where you have to, call it by the same name, with RHV (right hand variant), and your name as first ascentionist if you really want.
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