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dalton_climbs
Oct 17, 2006, 4:35 PM
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I am SO p*ssed off right now and I wonder if anyone else has this issue:
I am trying to get reasonably priced life insurance for myself and my wife. There is a question on all applications such as "Do you participate in any dangerous activities such as SCUBA, mountaineering, rock climbing, etc?". When you answer that as YES, you're screwed. In my case, our rates went up over 4 times versus not listing our hobbies....impossible to afford.
This angers me SO MUCH as intelligent, responsible and educated climbing is less dangerous than my daily commute on I-15....but not in the eyes of the underwriters. I was professionally trained and make responsible use of equipement. Moreover, I am a VERY recreation climber these days (a long 5.7 trad is the dream route).
Anyone have these issues?
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overlord
Oct 17, 2006, 4:38 PM
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show your insurance company the statistics... but i dont think that they really care. could be a nice hint though... target the mountaneer and climbers and actually calculte the risks.
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svilnit
Oct 17, 2006, 4:38 PM
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I haven't, however, one of my friends did. He was paying something like $33 a month for life insurance. When he mentioned he was a rock climber it went up to $150. I believe he has a nice rack for sale pretty cheap right now.
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fmd
Oct 17, 2006, 6:02 PM
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In reply to: I am SO p*ssed off right now and I wonder if anyone else has this issue: I am trying to get reasonably priced life insurance for myself and my wife. There is a question on all applications such as "Do you participate in any dangerous activities such as SCUBA, mountaineering, rock climbing, etc?". When you answer that as YES, you're screwed. In my case, our rates went up over 4 times versus not listing our hobbies....impossible to afford. This angers me SO MUCH as intelligent, responsible and educated climbing is less dangerous than my daily commute on I-15....but not in the eyes of the underwriters. I was professionally trained and make responsible use of equipement. Moreover, I am a VERY recreation climber these days (a long 5.7 trad is the dream route). Anyone have these issues?
Those clauses has been in the life insurance policies for as long as I can remember. Its no different with your auto insurance with how many miles do you drive. If you mark a high mileage, you pay more, even though the insurance companies know damn well that most auto accidents happens within 10 miles from a persons home. Unfortunatly, if you disclose your a climber, you are going to pay a higher premium. It really isnt no different of having a clean driving record and you pay a higher premium for a sports car, just because its a sports car.
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jgloporto
Oct 17, 2006, 6:26 PM
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This is not legal advice so don't rely on me 100% but I believe you could put nothing next to the dangerous hobbies questions. If you survive the incontestability period which in most places is two years from the date the policy was incepted, the insurer can't revoke coverage just because you failed to answer that question honestly. The problem with doing that is that if you died from a rock climbing related injury (as opposed to having a heart attack for example) after the two year period and the insurer could prove that you were a rock climber at the time the policy application was submitted, they probably can deny coverage and will probably win if you're heirs/estate sued the carrier.
Before you take my advice (don't without asking someone where you live) and lie on the application, you might want to just ask the carrier if they can exclude rock climbing related injuries under the policy.
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fitzontherocks
Oct 17, 2006, 6:52 PM
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What if you honestly were NOT a climber when you bought/signed up for the policy, and took up the sport many, many years later (like, 15)??? Assume you've been paying prremiums all along.
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jgloporto
Oct 17, 2006, 7:12 PM
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In reply to: What if you honestly were NOT a climber when you bought/signed up for the policy, and took up the sport many, many years later (like, 15)??? Assume you've been paying prremiums all along.
There might be language in the policy/binder/rider to the policy excluding coverage for deaths related to high risk activities. Assuming that there isn't you are good to go. (But, and this is a big but, in all likelyhood the carrier will at least try to deny coverage especially if its term life, enter the lawyers (hey, we gotta eat too)). Whole life would be a separate matter and if you have been paying premiums for a long time you'll always be entitled to the cash value of the policy no matter what happens.
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krusher4
Oct 17, 2006, 7:18 PM
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Don't list it.
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jgloporto
Oct 17, 2006, 7:39 PM
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As an aside, you premium shouldn't be affected that much for recreational rock climbing. People who climb as a profession would be different. But for average recreational climbers it shouldn't change or only marginally increase. Life policies are priced based on mortality tables which in turn are based on the leading causes of death (heart attacks, strokes, etc.) If we looked only at climbers as a separate pool in the population, the leading cause of death is still heart attacks, strokes etc. and not falling. If you were in a high risk catagory for a heart attack (like being a smoker), than you premium would justifiably increase and even then it would only increase by 50-75% on a typical term policy.
If you tell the agent that you rock climb and he increases the premium four fold, you are getting screwed and you should probable get a quote from somewhere else. A legit agent should send you a questionaire if you answer yes on the extreme sports question and you should be able to mitigate premium increases if you are a very recreational climber which in any case should be minor (unless you are planning to tick off the seven summits, for some reason, summiting K2 and the like is seen as particularly dangerous and would probably not be covered, but if you can afford to go to Pakistan and climb the most dangerous mountain in the world for six weeks, you probably don't need life insurance anyway).
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hemken
Oct 17, 2006, 7:44 PM
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Get a quote from a better company. State Farm asked me those questions, and didn't bat an eye when I told them the truth.
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fitzontherocks
Oct 17, 2006, 7:53 PM
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Seems like I remember "mountaineering" being listed, but not rock climbing. Although I sincerely doubt some actuarial is going to appreciate the difference. And I'm sure that being in excellent physical shape as a result of climbing would earn me a significant premium reduction, right?
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bbziger
Oct 17, 2006, 7:55 PM
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I suggest that you keep looking.
In addition to coverage through my employment, I have a $150,000 term policy through a private insurer for only $10 per month. My wife has a $100,000 term policy for $11 per month. We’re both 35-year-old non-smokers and we’re both climbers.
The first company I applied to wanted to charge over $40 per month because I was a climber. So I kept looking.
If I remember correctly, the one I settled on never asked about rock climbing. The questionnaire asked whether I participated in scuba diving, skydiving, or flying private planes. I answered no to all, which is truthful.
My wife’s policy did ask specifically about rock climbing. She checked yes and attached a statement that said something like, “I always use appropriate safety equipment and wear a helmet when climbing. I climb recreationally, and only do so several times per month.” I think her premium was only bumped up $1 or $2 per month, but nothing significant.
To look for insurance, go through a broker who represents multiple companies, not an agent who may only represent one. Or better yet, do your search online.
B
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fitzontherocks
Oct 17, 2006, 8:24 PM
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A good friend who's an insurance broker just sent me this:
"Once the two year contestability period has passed, all life contracts
are incontestable. Should you apply for a new policy now, and certain activities are present, they would apply a slight to moderate rating for the life of the policy."
And then he tried to sell me more insurance.
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jgloporto
Oct 17, 2006, 8:50 PM
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In reply to: A good friend who's an insurance broker just sent me this: "Once the two year contestability period has passed, all life contracts are incontestable. Should you apply for a new policy now, and certain activities are present, they would apply a slight to moderate rating for the life of the policy." And then he tried to sell me more insurance.
That's pretty much right. The way it works is, let's say for example you are HIV positive and you fail to mention that on your app, and then 18 months later you get hit by a car. The insurance company can deny coverage because you omitted/lied about a material fact on your application. If on the same facts the HIV positive applicate gets hit by a car in year 3, the insurer has to pay up but if the HIV person dies of AIDS in year 20, the insurer can assert fraud and might win in the coverage suit. The same would apply in rock climbing. If you fail to mention that on the app if it asks, and you get hit by a car in year 3, you can collect under the policy. If you are really concerned about the risks of climbing, then you need to be totally honest on the application, but make sure you are getting the best rate because as everyone indicated, the premium shouldn't go up that much.
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fitzontherocks
Oct 17, 2006, 8:58 PM
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Or better yet, don't deck.
(That's my policy and I'm sticking with it.)
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jgloporto
Oct 17, 2006, 9:17 PM
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In reply to: Or better yet, don't deck. (That's my policy and I'm sticking with it.)
An even better idea...
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grk10vq
Oct 17, 2006, 9:17 PM
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"honesty is the best policy"
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grk10vq
Oct 17, 2006, 9:20 PM
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In reply to: There is a question on all applications such as "Do you participate in any dangerous activities such as SCUBA, mountaineering, rock climbing, etc?". When you answer that as YES, you're screwed.
"honesty is the best policy"
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jcrew
Oct 17, 2006, 9:21 PM
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does anyone remember the WCA, world climbing association that had the climbers' insurance? i thought it was a good idea but never paid.
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keinangst
Oct 17, 2006, 9:26 PM
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There is no such thing as a climbing accident, only a victim whose partners have not yet managed to remove his climbing gear while out "hiking"
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majid_sabet
Oct 18, 2006, 12:34 AM
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It all has to do with good and bad Karma. Run a karma check on yourself every 2 years and or do it before any major climbing.
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alexmac
Oct 18, 2006, 2:03 AM
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In reply to: What if you honestly were NOT a climber when you bought/signed up for the policy, and took up the sport many, many years later (like, 15)??? Assume you've been paying prremiums all along.
If your hurt doing an activity like climbing and did not inform your insurance that you were climbing; your screwed, better to get wreck in a car.
Rather than pay up, they will send investigators out and ask anyone and everyone about you, they will get records from the local gyms (*that lovely waiver you signed and dated at the local gym, dated a few years ago*)
If you change your risk activities you have to tell the insurance company, they will insure you for your old activities sure but tell you your not covered for climbing or whatever.
Another example, occasional driver, you drive to work with your car, you get in accident they don't pay you.
As for that red sports car, it does crash more often, thus its more risk; why cause those that buy such a car drive faster. Higher risk , higher rates even without and accident. Want low rates get a Yugo or walk :)
I pay about 6 times regular rates to be insured for climbing but I also want a premium that see my wheel is solid gold, not plate.
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gritstoner
Oct 18, 2006, 8:04 AM
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I had the same problem till i contacted the British mountaineering council (BMC) about insurance. got a much better deal and it does include all sorts of other activities as well as climbing and mountaineering at reasonable rates.
im sure the AAC or which ever body is the national one will have some sort of insurance system set up.
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Oct 18, 2006, 12:14 PM
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[quote:4a0f3f9b18="alexmac"][quote:4a0f3f9b18="fitzontherocks"]What if you honestly were NOT a climber when you bought/signed up for the policy, and took up the sport many, many years later (like, 15)??? Assume you've been paying prremiums all along.[/quote:4a0f3f9b18]
If your hurt doing an activity like climbing and did not inform your insurance that you were climbing; your screwed, better to get wreck in a car.
Rather than pay up, they will send investigators out and ask anyone and everyone about you, they will get records from the local gyms (*that lovely waiver you signed and dated at the local gym, dated a few years ago*)
If you change your risk activities you have to tell the insurance company, they will insure you for your old activities sure but tell you your not covered for climbing or whatever.
Another example, occasional driver, you drive to work with your car, you get in accident they don't pay you.
[b:4a0f3f9b18]As for that red sports car, it does crash more often, thus its more risk; why cause those that buy such a car drive faster. Higher risk , higher rates even without and accident. Want low rates get a Yugo or walk :)[/b:4a0f3f9b18]
I pay about 6 times regular rates to be insured for climbing but I also want a premium that see my wheel is solid gold, not plate.[/quote:4a0f3f9b18]
Red sports cars dont crash more often. People driving red sports cars crash more often. I have a 1992 mustang with 420 HP convertable and I am in my 40's and no tickets for 15 years. I still pay TWICE as much for the sports car than I do for my 2003 pickup and 1999 Mazda combined. Just because its a sports car. So the insurance company is basically doing insurance on the car, NOT ME. The same goes for "high risk sports". They are writing policies on the acitivties. Yeah, so what you wear a helmet or you are safe or you are "trained". There is a higher than normal risk from Joe average policies so you are going to pay more than Joe average.
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