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jimdavis
Oct 23, 2006, 5:01 PM
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In reply to: Another issue you bring up is the use of your ropes tied off with the knot as a stopper. Knots can and do stretch through carabiners and cause accidents when this happens. Didn't you read the accident report at table rock where the knot popped through the biners (although in that case they say that both ends were through all biners). Your recommendation that you could rappel on the fat rope and ignore the skinny is frightening and is of concern. You might could tie an enormous knot to try to avoid this problem but then it would get hung up 500 feet up a 1000 foot wall and you'd have to solo to retrieve it or get rescued. Your suggestion to let the knot work as a stopper is a good extra practice to follow as I do even when rappelling with a 9mm tied to a 10.5mm but to think you could take the 9mm out of your device and let the knot hold your weight against the opening of a carabiner hoping it won't stretch through is absurd.
I'm not talking about pulling a knot through biners I'm talking about pulling it through a rap station, with steel rap rings....much smaller.
12mm is 1/2" what I've seen multiple services use. I'm not talking about "bail out" lines...this isn't the fire dept. I'm talking about personal use on a rescue...moving down ropes to get somewhere...personally.
The device would overheat in a rescue? Give me a break....rappell at a reasonable rate and you'll never have a problem. Of all the multipitch climbers out there, not many rap on figure 8's at the end of the day...there's a reason for that.
FMD, where did I compare AMGA standards to NFPA standards? You speak about how the 8 is certified for rescue....we're debating the ATC as used by climbers for rappelling....NFPA standars don't mean much here...AMGA "standards" might. Show me one top guide who uses a figure 8 to rap in a multipitch setting....show me one.
The 8 is plain and simple outdated...its use is limited to people who need to use NFPA gear...or are too set in their old ways to learn a new, better way of rapping.
To those of you who don't think you can tie off an ATC easilly....you ever hear of a leg wrap? How about the belay escape way....draw your rope through your biner, tie a mule hitch on the spine....draw out a large loop in the mule hitch, and tie an overhand backup around the rap strand(s). There's your standard belay tie-off. Load releasable, and can be performed at any time. I much prefer this to any other way of tieing off an 8.
In reply to: You sound like your AMGA course has taken you into overanalyzing things that work in the world of practice rather than in a textbook of a training course. Anyway, someday you may be faced with long multipitch rappels on Whitesides or another steep cliff and just remember what I am saying.
If you guys wanna go ahead and haul some extra metal up the cliff with you...go ahead....but doing so offers no signifigant safety benefit.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...&topic_view=&start=0
Here's some more opinions on the 8.
Jim
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jimdavis
Oct 23, 2006, 5:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: considering your defense of the dulfersitz as your "rappel method of choice", and your blatent off-color remarks in the "kidnapped climber" thread...I really don't consider you the expert on this. you cite it being a device certified for use by fire/ military? yeah, cause they're the experts on vertical rope technique....you ever watched the fire department try and do a roped rescue? You could take a nap in the time it takes them to get their s--- together. I wouldn't wanna model any of my techniques upon the recomendation of either of these institutions. You talk about being a heavy climber on a thin rope, or having to deal with thinner ropes than you planned on....ever hear of a super-munter? If I'm packing my bag, and I know what rope I'm using, what I weight, and how it works for me....saying that the figure 8 allows you to rap on thinner ropes is a poor reason for calling it a good device. Climbers need to belay as well as rappel on the rope they use....try using a high friction mode on a figure 8 to belay with.....you can't. SO...it makes sence to use a Jaws, or Reversino, etc. You know what rope diameter you'll be using, and you can belay with the same device. And just for kicks....tell me why a figure 8 is better to use than a super munter on thin cord? While your at it...why is the dulfersitz your rappel method of choice? I'm still yet to see why a figure 8 is worth it's weight to any climber not using frozen 12mm lines. Jim Jim You only want to hear your voices in your head, you do not need to hear mine or any one elses, just do what you think is best for you.
You haven't answered my questions, Majid.
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majid_sabet
Oct 23, 2006, 5:52 PM
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Jim
Sorry, I did not know you were AMGA certified climber.If you told me this in the beginning, I would not even come to RC. Now I need to sell every thing I got on ebay and get out of this business.
Does any one want to buy my weired looking 8 for $2.00 ? PM me
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jimdavis
Oct 23, 2006, 6:21 PM
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In reply to: Jim Sorry, I did not know you were AMGA certified climber.If you told me this in the beginning, I would not even come to RC. Now I need to sell every thing I got on ebay and get out of this business. Does any one want to buy my weired looking 8 for $2.00 ? PM me
My cert has nothing to do with this. I brought it up cause I've spent a good amount of time learning under some experts....that's all. However, there are plenty of us that'd be happy if you weren't posting the usual drivel we've come accustomed to seeing in your posts.
But, if your gonna make claims like you have...then back it up. Or would you rather try and come up with some clever insult to sling, rather than substantiate your claims. Why do you feel that a dulfersitz rappel is safer, in your "personal opinion"?
AND why do you need an 8 to rap in skinny cord, and can't use a Super-Munter?
Your dodging my questions, I presume because you don't have an answer.
So, post up. If you can't backup what you say...you shouldn't say it in the first place.
We're waiting, Majid.
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fmd
Oct 23, 2006, 7:04 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Another issue you bring up is the use of your ropes tied off with the knot as a stopper. Knots can and do stretch through carabiners and cause accidents when this happens. Didn't you read the accident report at table rock where the knot popped through the biners (although in that case they say that both ends were through all biners). Your recommendation that you could rappel on the fat rope and ignore the skinny is frightening and is of concern. You might could tie an enormous knot to try to avoid this problem but then it would get hung up 500 feet up a 1000 foot wall and you'd have to solo to retrieve it or get rescued. Your suggestion to let the knot work as a stopper is a good extra practice to follow as I do even when rappelling with a 9mm tied to a 10.5mm but to think you could take the 9mm out of your device and let the knot hold your weight against the opening of a carabiner hoping it won't stretch through is absurd. I'm not talking about pulling a knot through biners I'm talking about pulling it through a rap station, with steel rap rings....much smaller. 12mm is 1/2" what I've seen multiple services use. I'm not talking about "bail out" lines...this isn't the fire dept. I'm talking about personal use on a rescue...moving down ropes to get somewhere...personally. The device would overheat in a rescue? Give me a break....rappell at a reasonable rate and you'll never have a problem. Of all the multipitch climbers out there, not many rap on figure 8's at the end of the day...there's a reason for that. FMD, where did I compare AMGA standards to NFPA standards? You speak about how the 8 is certified for rescue....we're debating the ATC as used by climbers for rappelling....NFPA standars don't mean much here...AMGA "standards" might. Show me one top guide who uses a figure 8 to rap in a multipitch setting....show me one. The 8 is plain and simple outdated...its use is limited to people who need to use NFPA gear...or are too set in their old ways to learn a new, better way of rapping. To those of you who don't think you can tie off an ATC easilly....you ever hear of a leg wrap? How about the belay escape way....draw your rope through your biner, tie a mule hitch on the spine....draw out a large loop in the mule hitch, and tie an overhand backup around the rap strand(s). There's your standard belay tie-off. Load releasable, and can be performed at any time. I much prefer this to any other way of tieing off an 8. In reply to: You sound like your AMGA course has taken you into overanalyzing things that work in the world of practice rather than in a textbook of a training course. Anyway, someday you may be faced with long multipitch rappels on Whitesides or another steep cliff and just remember what I am saying. Not a day of my course was spent learning from a textbook...all of it was experience based, and taught by and IFMGA guide. Someday I'll be faced with multipitch rappels? Too late...haven't had a problem yet. If you guys wanna go ahead and haul some extra metal up the cliff with you...go ahead....but doing so offers no signifigant safety benefit. http://www.rockclimbing.com/...&topic_view=&start=0 Here's some more opinions on the 8. Jim
Good. We agree on one thing...You are the one that brought up rescue teams and them using ATC's. My point is THAT the NFPA and AMGA are different organization for different needs and shouldnt be compared. And BTW, I am TRSM certified also. WHooppie....Now if you are a cerified Rock Instructor :D
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majid_sabet
Oct 23, 2006, 7:33 PM
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hosh boy
If you are not AMAG GMAC and NFPA certified, you got no business to climb nor to be here jumping in the middle of experts .
put your helmet on and stay out of this
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jimdavis
Oct 23, 2006, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: What if you needed to get off a big wall quickly during a lightning storm are you going to wait for your ATC to cool on rappel? Send me your textbook quote on that one.
Well, it could very well be raining....wet ropes, cooler ATC. Or, I could switch over to a munter for a pitch. Or I could not rap fast enough to heat up an atc badly....as its never happened to me before. Lets not forget that you have to pull your ropes and setup another rappel...time for a device to cool. Oh, and I assuming that have a partner with you, and they have their device, you can do a partner rappel on one device....or both use munters.
There are numerous options....the first one would be to not climb as a front is coming it!
And yet again you bring up textbooks...why? Is it because I, unlike you, have persued professional trainings with some true experts in the mountains? If so, feel free to try and discredit the standards and opinions of professional climbers and guides...I'd looooove to see you try.
Also, you stated that ATC heat up quickly because they're much thiner metal.....well that means more surface area relative to their mass. So, an ATC will cool off quicker than an 8....lets say we both rap for a while and get our respective devices hot....you'll have to wait longer for yours to cool off. What are you gonna do now?
Jim
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jonescd
Oct 23, 2006, 7:57 PM
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I'm a guide that has used a figure-eight for years of instructing rock, ice, mountaineering I,II, & III. The eight does lock off much more nicely (by crossing the two ropes inside the big ring) than having to lock off in the ways that you describe. I back this up with leg wraps and have no problem with circulation in my legs because the eight takes the weight (leg wraps alone are lethal). Your examples with the ATC require much more effort and time and most climbers will opt for only the leg wraps which result in loss of circulation since with the ATC not locked they take the weight. Try pulling the extra slack and tying off on a overhanging climb with the ATC. Sure, if I'm shaving weight I'll opt for the ATC but if I'm hauling a bag up the extra weight doesn't matter. 4 years of climbing does not make you an expert on rappel devices even if your mentor was Royal Robbins. Hell Robbins would probably opt for the biner brake rappel. Furthermore, your suggestion on using munter hitches for rappeling multipitch is what is outdated as this wears half ropes like mad and really heats up the locker. How about stop spraying a know it all attitude and take an open approach to what experienced people are trying to share with you. I am listening to some of your suggestions and agreeing with some of them but you agree with none of what anyone else has posted. This signifies that you believe that you are an absolute authority of climbing and climbing safety when in fact your years bring you here as a novice in this arena, even with your classes - being less defensive is much more convincing and constructive to the purpose of education posted as the main topic on this thread. I have multiple criticisms of things that AMGA has done in the past in several of my academic publications, one being the ICORE proceedings in
Charleston, SC. AMGA is about what guides should do (often to avoid lawsuits because they think they have the trademark on industry standards), not necessarily what private climbers should do for themselves. I don't agree with all of their practices or rules and so never even applied. Does that make me old school, not necessarily, safer, maybe. I never trust someone with my safety who has gained most of their knowledge second hand. It takes time to use these techniques, and that includes trying what others suggest, before you claim ultimate unbending authority. I'm sure you are a good guide, but it will take years to be experienced fully on safety.
Some of the most certified people I've known have had the worst accidents that could have been prevented with good mentoring and more time on the rock. In fact, the most certified person for climbing that I know, was terrified on trad, climbed 5.7, and placed their gear in 5 different expanding flakes when I followed him. He also built the belay anchor on multipitch inside a loose flake without any backup and when I said something didn't even acknowledge he had made a mistake. I never climbed with him again and now thie person is an authority in another country on a climbing safety council. Not to that there are no highly experienced AMGA guides, sure there are plenty but I am always cautious of any new up and coming certified climber giving me safety advice. Sure the ATC-xp is a good device but even BD will tell you that it has limitations in certain applications. Do you also like to guide with clients using Grigris. If so you really need to read the pub that I referenced? There are still things to be learned beyond AMGA.
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majid_sabet
Oct 23, 2006, 8:01 PM
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jonescd
you are not AMGA, GMAC NFPA certified climber, stay out of this
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jonescd
Oct 23, 2006, 8:11 PM
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Jim,
Grow up and knock later. This is my last post to you because this has degraded into silliness. ATCs always get hotter per inch of metal on long rappels - try for yourself - you obviously haven't climbed enough to try both. Less aluminum to absorb and less surface area, end of story- no more silly arguments can disprove that. When ATCs get too hot they can crack and fail. You haven't rappelled fast on an ATC yet because you must not been on big rock enough to ever run from a storm. Someday you may find yourself in this situation. You are qualified for little other than the relaying of second hand knowledge. Be a climber for a while rather than a techie and please let this thread regain its purpose of education. Now with all that said will an ATC work in most situations, yes it will. Is it better for rappelling no it definitely isn't in most situations - I don't care where your education comes from or what tech weinnies think otherwise. People that focus on their climbing as tech weinies are usually the most frightening, paranoid, and prone to accidents and the first to open their mouths to tell others what they think about their fascist climbing practices -- they themselves aren't sure why these practics are supposed to work other than what they have been told by someone they assume has the best authority. Trying things (with a backup) for yourself before trusting them is no substitute.
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jonescd
Oct 23, 2006, 8:20 PM
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majid_sabet,
I could care less about the AMGA. I started this thread - you are also fascist thinking that anyone who can comment on safety on RC.om needs to be AMGA. Having AMGA is not an industry standard certification for guiding and it won't be for a long time hopefully. The certification makes novices able to put you in jeopardy in my opinion. I know plenty of people with AMGA toprope (actually most of them, probably like Jim Davis) who have never climbed harder than 5.7 and have no clue about setting good gear for anchors. No substitute for old school experience and you can't buy that. Your buddy Jim here has a license to teach people what he thinks is safe when he is actually very unaware of many aspects of safety as I have reminded him. Your mountaineering experience does look to be valid on your site but you haven't stated your experience yet.
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jonescd
Oct 23, 2006, 8:25 PM
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Ok, sorry, your site shows your average trad leading around 5.8. Now I am getting a sense of reason for the defensiveness.
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jimdavis
Oct 23, 2006, 8:29 PM
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In reply to: jonescd you are not AMGA, GMAC NFPA certified climber, stay out of this
still waiting majid.
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jonescd
Oct 23, 2006, 8:31 PM
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No Jim, the last comment from me was posted to you.
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majid_sabet
Oct 23, 2006, 8:35 PM
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In reply to: majid_sabet, I could care less about the AMGA. I started this thread - you are also fascist thinking that anyone who can comment on safety on RC.om needs to be AMGA. Having AMGA is not an industry standard certification for guiding and it won't be for a long time hopefully. The certification makes novices able to put you in jeopardy in my opinion. I know plenty of people with AMGA toprope (actually most of them, probably like Jim Davis) who have never climbed harder than 5.7 and have no clue about setting good gear for anchors. No substitute for old school experience and you can't buy that. Your buddy Jim here has a license to teach people what he thinks is safe when he is actually very unaware of many aspects of safety as I have reminded him. Your mountaineering experience does look to be valid on your site but you haven't stated your experience yet.
Jim is not my buddy, he never helps me
Can you help me and teach me to get experience and assist me to become AMGA certified, please.....I will gain more respect here
Thanks
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jonescd
Oct 23, 2006, 8:37 PM
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Majid,
We still don't know your experience. We have beautiful pictures of mountains on your site and you are not in any of them. Please tell us what has brought you to a position of safety authority.
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fmd
Oct 23, 2006, 8:38 PM
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In reply to: hosh boy If you are not AMAG GMAC and NFPA certified, you got no business to climb nor to be here jumping in the middle of experts . put your helmet on and stay out of this
Or eating MRE's instead of ham sandwiches....Pffttt...some people.
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jimdavis
Oct 23, 2006, 8:47 PM
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In reply to: Jim, Grow up and knock later. This is my last post to you because this has degraded into silliness. ATCs always get hotter per inch of metal on long rappels - try for yourself - you obviously haven't climbed enough to try both. Less aluminum to absorb and less surface area, end of story- no more silly arguments can disprove that. When ATCs get too hot they can crack and fail. You haven't rappelled fast on an ATC yet because you must not been on big rock enough to ever run from a storm. Someday you may find yourself in this situation. You are qualified for little other than the relaying of second hand knowledge. Be a climber for a while rather than a techie and please let this thread regain its purpose of education. Now with all that said will an ATC work in most situations, yes it will. Is it better for rappelling no it definitely isn't in most situations - I don't care where your education comes from or what tech weinnies think otherwise. People that focus on their climbing as tech weinies are usually the most frightening, paranoid, and prone to accidents and the first to open their mouths to tell others what they think about their fascist climbing practices -- they themselves aren't sure why these practics are supposed to work other than what they have been told by someone they assume has the best authority. Trying things (with a backup) for yourself before trusting them is no substitute.
Your call call my points silly, and you bring up cracking an ATC with heat??
You're being incredibly defensive about the mention of my learning AMGA stuff. If you don't like them, fine. But, you don't have a shot in hell at discrediting the opinion of the 2 IMFGA guides I've spoken with about rappel device usage.
I have no problem listening to your points, but you've yet to make one that I think is relevant.
Heat dissipation is a function or surface area relative to mass. You call this point a silly argument....if you don't believe this, then by your logic an anvil will cool faster than a paper clip. A figure 8 will hold heat much longer...by that logic it will also take longer to heat up than an ATC, true.
Tech weenie? Maybe...I like to know precisely how my equipment functions, and how techniques work. I'm anal about it, and have devoted myself to it for the past 5 years. As a result I've got a working knowledge of plenty of skills above the level that I climb at....
But you know what were talking about...a fuckin' rappel device! If you can't see that a figure 8 is a piece of shit in a week...then god help you if you still think it's the cats meow after your years of teaching mountaineering courses (read: frozen ropes and gloves)
Tell you what...you can spend 5 mins rethreading your rope at the next rap station cause your 8 twisted the shit outta it and it's now kinkier than a $2000 hooker...and I'll spend 3 waiting for my ATC to cool down. Sound good to you? :roll:
Jim
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majid_sabet
Oct 23, 2006, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: Majid, We still don't know your experience. We have beautiful pictures of mountains on your site and you are not in any of them. Please tell us what has brought you to a position of safety authority.
hell no
I am have no AMGA certification to talk about safety authority. As far as photos , I just downloaded a few photos for my site so I could fit in to this forum, that is all.
I never said I was a climber but I know I got to start working on my AMGA paper work to become one.
PS
Is fig 8 safer knot or bowline ? what is good for harness ? I have a test coming up in my gym, I do not want to fail my belay test by this AMGA certified gym worker.
thanks
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jimdavis
Oct 23, 2006, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: No Jim, the last comment from me was posted to you.
I know, but he's still hiding behind insults rather than answer the questions I've asked numerous times.
Cheers,
Jim
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jonescd
Oct 23, 2006, 8:51 PM
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Majid,
Please don't post here againunless it is to ask a question, since you have no clue about climbing safety yet.
Jim, at least we are on the same page now. Drop the axe and sit by the fire at our campsite.
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jimdavis
Oct 23, 2006, 8:54 PM
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In reply to: [ As far as photos , I just downloaded a few photos for my site so I could fit in to this forum, that is all. I never said I was a climber but I know I got to start working on my AMGA paper work to become one. PS Is fig 8 safer knot or bowline ? what is good for harness ? I have a test coming up in my gym, I do not want to fail my belay test by this AMGA certified gym worker. thanks
In reply to: U kall Pigs ,fbi,la immigracion, next time me pull chingata u gringoo u dye for cinco dollares .
In reply to: Amigo, I sed give me dinero i go LA ,u cheep pendejo caused mucho problemas now La Immigrasion louk for me,next time i tak kar of u esse, remember my face Battoooooooooo, hasta la vista chicoooooo
For some of the others following this thread, so you can see what Majid had to contribute towards a discussion involving a member of the climbing community having a gun pointed in their face.
Any other enlightening responces you have for us Majid...or do you think you can nut-up now, and substantiate your redicilous claims?
Jim
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majid_sabet
Oct 23, 2006, 9:02 PM
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In reply to: Majid, Please don't post here againunless it is to ask a question, since you have no clue about climbing safety yet. Jim, at least we are on the same page now. Drop the axe and sit by the fire at our campsite.
Jones
You broke my feeling about climbing, I never forgive you :(
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jonescd
Oct 23, 2006, 9:05 PM
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Jim,
I don't have the problems with rope kink that you do. Must be that you are not every weighting your ropes on long enough routes to stretch the kinks out. Do you use an eight ring to rappel to able to comment on this. Again a silly argument since you don't.
Wait a minute I am not responding to either of you further because both lack authority -- this thread is ending as far as my posts unless we get someone who has some degree of authority to comment.
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