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rrrADAM
Nov 15, 2006, 7:40 AM
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Daniel & 'sangiro'(sorry, name not known):
As one of the previous owners of the site, among other things, I had actively recruited and appointed much of the staff (Admin, Moderators, Editors, Area Managers for the RDB, etc...) still active when you bought the site, and still active after this weekend's transition.
I have recieved many Private Messages from ex-staff and users who were unaware that I was no longer an owner, almost 2 years now, and as a result they questioned many of the recent changes but more importantly were appauled at the treatment (whether percieved or real) of some of them and other users who critiqued or opposed any of the changes or said treatment.
Worse... I have recieved a few alarming Private Messages from some of those I had recruited that they are being threatened with immediate termination of their duties if they voice any concerns, publically or privately, that are critical of the recent descisions made by the owners and/or treatment of the users by the owners.
Is this true ???
I've actively participated in the management of data, features, and/or staff for almost 7 years now on this site, and I wasn't a saint by any measure during my tenure at the top, but I always tried to remember and convey to all that as staff we served the users, and that there was no prestige in being a servant, even the Top Servant.
I hope that you may step back a bit, and consider why the discention. The users and staff have been here for years, and are keen on the nuances that make up this dynamic community of climbers, most of whom are a-type personalities, as it takes that to climb boldly... Their opinions do have value, even though it may not be sugar coated, but hey... we're a motley crew crammed into one site.
Please... If you are threatening the staff with termination of their duties if they are critical of your descisions or actions, please reconsider this as it will do the site no good, and can actually make it much worse.
You guys have invested a lot of money in aquiring this site, since most of the tangible value (the data and usability) seems to have been set back years and even unfixable in some cases, that does not appear to be high priority, so it appears you basically bought the name and its userbase (number) for advertising reasons. Please do not squander your investment.... The users make the site, not the owners, as the users add ALL of the content, not the owners, and the advertisers pitch their ads to the users, not the owners.
Sincerely,
A.S.Bingel
(This post was edited by rrradam on Nov 15, 2006, 7:49 AM)
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ddt
Nov 15, 2006, 9:24 AM
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Adam,
I appreciate the tone in which you've made your post, and your desire to preserve what is good about RC.com. We subscribe to those same goals.
No, it is not true that we've threatened anyone of the existing staff with immediate termination if they voiced concerns, or are critical of our ideas, decisions or actions. We have stated over and over that we WELCOME this sort of criticism, and we have reflected this stance in our actions. We've admitted when we've made mistakes, and we sought to rectify the situation. Go read our posts over the past year. Seek to understand where we're coming from. Put yourself in our shoes and give us a little benefit of the doubt and you'll realize that we're not out on a quest to run rc.com to the ground. We value and respect its users. We want to keep it a great place, for many years to come.
There are two points though that I would like to state very clearly. These seem to be at the crux of some growing and unfounded distrust and concern about our motives, style and judgment:
1. We don't have patience with personal attacks, abuse and belittlement of people, whether it's directed at a noob, another user, a mod, ourselves, or children that cannot speak for themselves here. We'll treat you with respect and we expect you to do the same to others on the site. This one single thing is core to what we believe has been lacking on RC.com for a number of years now, and we would like to see it back (no reflection on your term here  ). Now please don't confuse this with disagreement, or even heated debate. That we can take, and will encourage. Don't confuse it with Nazi-style moderation either. You should feel free to voice your opinion without any fear of retaliation. Just do it in a way that upholds the basic principle above.
2. We acquired RC.com and made a great investment from our personal money and time in it. To us it is imperative that we surround ourselves with a leadership team that can pull in the same direction with us, even if we often disagree and spend a lot of time debating things and giving each other feedback. If someone publicly or privately positions themselves in a way that makes it clear we're not going to have a good working relationship, there is absolutely no sense in us keeping that person on the team. It's not good for us, nor for them. No harm done. No hard feelings.
We are currently dealing with a staff issue. You do not have all the facts, and I won't publish them here because it's personal and sensitive. I can assure you that we're basing our actions on the points made above.
Daniel
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thomasribiere
Nov 15, 2006, 9:35 AM
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I hope that a small wound to the site won't lead to a large haemorrhage of major contributors. Let's stand strong and united for the benefit of this site we all appreciate.
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rrrADAM
Nov 15, 2006, 10:02 AM
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Thanx for you curtious reply Daniel, you seem like a stand up guy thus far.
I think you may want to consider whether the users and owners are held to the same standard in regards to this:In reply to: 1. We don't have patience with personal attacks, abuse and belittlement of people, whether it's directed at a noob, another user, a mod, ourselves, or children that cannot speak for themselves here....
Believe me, I "have been in your shows", and I, as well as the rest of the staff, were held to a higher standard. I have had my fair share of rotten vegetables thrown at me for doing my job, and I learned to make a pretty good salad... But if I treated users with credulence I was held accountable by the site. It appears that he is being held accountable, but that it is being turned around on the users as attacks, abuse, and belittlement of him... Public accountability by the masses can be a painfull pill to swallow. Again, we are a rauchous bunch, and it is unlikey rockclimbers are going to respond with, "excuse me sir, but I think you may have hurt his/my feelings". I learned this lesson the hard way, read through the Admin Forum and you will see that I have "been in your shoes". But I actually sought out a few who were very much opposed to my ideas and/or disliked me personally as staff, as they brought 'balance'.
I wouldn't want you to bring any private issues to public light, as we did the same... Even though its food for conspiracey theorists/drama queens, but then they can never be satisfied.
I have been here for every change we've had, and the bigger the change the more painfull it was, as we by nature hate change... This is a pretty big change, so its pretty painfull to many, myself included, but for me its because of the loss of SO MUCH of what was worked so hard for to create that now seems forever lost:
-HTML links all broken over the entire INTERNET that come back to this site. (i.e. wikipedia citations, resource links, etc...)
-HTML disabled, by choice and permanantly in user profiles
-Networking or users on the site. (i.e. Friends, Partners, etc...)
-All of the Photo tools that had been written and improved over 5 years, so a really slick usable utility.
-Losing people who passionately cared about this site, and were willing to work to improve it, and spread the word at the crags.
-Losing the usablity of the RDB... I know you guys have plans, or think its better now, but its not.
-HTML in existing threads are now all broken, and there were many well constructed and/or informative threads. I mean litterally thousands.
Those are just some off the top of my head... Perusing this forum shows many other valid losses.
But like I said.... Change is painfull, and its reported to be a "work in progress", so hopefully it progresses well. But you really should look into options for bringing back much of what has been reffered to by me and others.
And please remember, that your staff will not lead you astray, but ignoring their beta can land you in a crux you can't pull.
And finally... As I said, being held accountable publically can be painfull, but the transparencey and willingness to do so shows good faith and removes the wind from the sails of the drama queens. Fighting back and/or abusing the users, or appearing to, will only be traumatic.
(This post was edited by rrradam on Nov 15, 2006, 10:25 AM)
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pk
Nov 15, 2006, 10:37 AM
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VERY stand up posts!
Being able to now see what users are doing!@ View posts,writing posts, etc for the past few hours it seems that new owners don't care to respond to this.
(You can actually monitor users not being a mod and see what they are choosing to respond to now)
I would like a responce!
Let me be the first to say I don't post as much as I used to, and many have no clue who I am which I am fine with. I've been with the site about 3 years now and I have never found a founder of RC.com to be as abbrasive as the 2 in change now(this is not a personal attack)
You both need to take what has been said above to heart they are trying to help you not hurt you. The way one of you has come off already is seriously concerning!
As someone who visits everyday what I have read from the owners in certain posts is unreal. If you really have been contacting the mod's with threats!!! I have no words for you and I will leave it at that.
-P.K.
EDIT: This was posted long after DDT's responce - I'm not changing my post but! I logged in to see just the 2 posts and responded to that (maybe still a site bug)
(This post was edited by pk on Nov 15, 2006, 10:43 AM)
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thomasribiere
Nov 15, 2006, 11:10 AM
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^ pk wrote : If you really have been contacting the mod's with threats!!!
No one but the concerned moderator and owner knows what happened, so such comments can only worsen the situation.
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pk
Nov 15, 2006, 11:20 AM
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In reply to: ^ pk wrote : If you really have been contacting the mod's with threats!!! No one but the concerned moderator and owner knows what happened, so such comments can only worsen the situation.
Note my edit:
That said in my edit I also said I would not change what I had already stated. Believe me when I say I'm not one of those users that will bitch about everything that has changed is bad and the new owners are nothing but evil! Far from that!
The new site has a great potential! rrr's post only hit on a few things that I have been noticing that was what my post was about and that's it!
My first post was about adam's and your post (which I saw as the first 2 posts in this thread when I posted) I had first viewed this post more than 2 hours earlier. Maybe a caching problem? On my side our yours?
-P.K.
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wjca
Nov 15, 2006, 3:17 PM
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In reply to: We are currently dealing with a staff issue. You do not have all the facts, and I won't publish them here because it's personal and sensitive. I can assure you that we're basing our actions on the points made above. Daniel
It looks like Hillary is no longer a Mod. Did she quit or was she asked to leave? If she was asked to leave, was it because of her comments in this thread:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
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caughtinside
Nov 15, 2006, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: We are currently dealing with a staff issue. You do not have all the facts, and I won't publish them here because it's personal and sensitive. I can assure you that we're basing our actions on the points made above. Daniel It looks like Hillary is no longer a Mod. Did she quit or was she asked to leave? If she was asked to leave, was it because of her comments in this thread: http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
Hilary got canned as a mod by sangiro.
In any event, recent changes to the site, including the post by the new owner above, make it clear to me that this site is now their property, and not the community that it once was. It's now some sort of 'privilege' to be here.
I'm not saying they don't have a right to that, since they invested their money and time, but the vibe around here is totally different.
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wideguy
Nov 15, 2006, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: I'm not saying they don't have a right to that, since they invested their money and time, but the vibe around here is totally different.
dude, the "vibe " around here is barely out of the shell. The "Old" RC went through these fits and starts too. When Adam took the reins, during Mike's brief stint at the helm, even way back with Trevor's varying involvement at times.
New Mods and new admins come in and tweak the TOS and Chicken Little comes out of hiding with his "Things will never be the same" sandwich board.
I love Hil (as much as you can someone you haven't actually met yet), and if she's gone over this interaction, then that is a real loss.
Sangiro apologized for his offence, he seems to be making an effort. Now what happened in M&E is something I'm not privvy to and might change my opinion if I was.
My point is, every time there is a power switch there is a power shift ther is bound to be a dust up. But the "Vibe" is made by the people who stay and remain active. We'll all learn to live in the new environment, I suspect we'll come to find that Sangiro and DDT are somewhere just a shade this side of jack-booteded thugs, and life will go on.
I hope everyone is here for that.
(This post was edited by wideguy on Nov 15, 2006, 6:27 PM)
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epic_ed
Nov 15, 2006, 6:13 PM
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I think the tone of some of the initial feedback elicited a poor response from one of the new owners. I also think it's clear, if you've read his comments since, that he regrets the tone he took and is trying very hard to set the boat straight. Daniel's comments, both public and private, have never been out of line, IMO.
Everyone involved got angry and defensive and I think we've all had a chance to reflect and agree that's a non-productive direction. I'm hoping we can all continue to move forward and leave the attitudes behind.
Come on, folks -- hang in there. As a person working behind the scenes to some degree I can tell you that honest and constructive feedback is being considered and your comments are not falling on deaf ears. It's just very over-whelming right now for the code guys to prioritize what needs attention first. I'm with most of you -- there are some features I miss and some that have been disabled which are completely unacceptible to me (Adam's list above is dead on). But even if we all came to agreement today about things that will be improved upon and changed, the changes are going to take a while to happen.
On that note, I think it's the responsibility of the ownership to keep our members updated about what changes will be made and in what order (more or less) they will be prioritized. If you check out Daniel's posts I think you'll agree that he is doing just that. We're day three into the collosal change and already much feedback has been acted upon and plans made to move forward with some other suggestions.
Be patient, be helpful, and be diplomatic, and I'm sure this will wind up being a much greater improvement over the old website. On balance, I think it already is, but has a lot of room for additional changes. Your comments are being heard.
Ed
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dingus
Nov 15, 2006, 7:17 PM
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I worked for a company that had a dictatorial executive group. All decisions were made at that level and handed down as if from god herself.
Now this dictatorial executive crew surrounded themselves with management that were all pulling in the same direction. Yet ironically, these same middle managers HAD NO SAY in any decision at the firm.
So in effect when the Executive said PULL, these middle managers PULLED toward the indicated direction.
Moral of this story? There are no morals in the business world sillys! The Executives sold the company, made a pile of dough and moved to the Carribbean (true) and the middle managers were all laid off in the resulting merger.
I hate dictators. Hate em with a passion.
I wouldn't work for such a management team in the world and I DAMN SURE wouldn't do it for free.
A site manager with no voice in the decisions of the site direction is a muzzled attack dog, start to finish.
NOW PULL! (or we'll fire you)
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Nov 15, 2006, 7:18 PM)
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fenix83
Moderator
Nov 15, 2006, 7:31 PM
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In reply to: I worked for a company that had a dictatorial executive group. All decisions were made at that level and handed down as if from god herself. Now this dictatorial executive crew surrounded themselves with management that were all pulling in the same direction. Yet ironically, these same middle managers HAD NO SAY in any decision at the firm. So in effect when the Executive said PULL, these middle managers PULLED toward the indicated direction. Moral of this story? There are no morals in the business world sillys! The Executives sold the company, made a pile of dough and moved to the Carribbean (true) and the middle managers were all laid off in the resulting merger. I hate dictators. Hate em with a passion. I wouldn't work for such a management team in the world and I DAMN SURE wouldn't do it for free. A site manager with no voice in the decisions of the site direction is a muzzled attack dog, start to finish. NOW PULL! (or we'll fire you) DMT
I agree with basically every word above, and yet I am still "working" for these guys for free, that alone should tell you something. Making assumptions about the character of the new leadership (or anyone else for that matter) based on rumors about a single incident is a great way to contract "foot-in-the-mouth syndrome".
The site changeover has ruffled a lot of feathers and inflamed a lot of tempers, some things might have gone too far in the heat of the moment. Do not take this to be the regular MO or new leadership style. Hopefully the offended parties will make amends and we can all move forward together.
-F
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dingus
Nov 15, 2006, 7:45 PM
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Cool. How many of the mods agreed with the 'no embedded images' decision? Did YOU agree with it? Did any of you?
DMT
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epic_ed
Nov 15, 2006, 8:05 PM
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In reply to: Cool. How many of the mods agreed with the 'no embedded images' decision? Did YOU agree with it? Did any of you? DMT
NONE that I know of -- including me. This feedback was given during the beta testing and if you'll refer to Phil's comments in one of the currently stickied threads, the short term plan is to at least enable a thumbnail "link" to the photo within a thread. This is a step in the right direction, but still short of acceptible, IMO. My understanding is that allowing imbedded photos, carte blanche like it was in the previous format, is something that will take additional coding and therefore must be prioritized on the list of stuff "to do."
Now, whether they make the decision to do this or not is another matter. I think it would be a bad mistake to not fully restore imbedded photos and I think the nearly unanimous choir from...well...EVERYONE, should convince them that there's no logical reason to do otherwise.
We'll see.
Ed
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fenix83
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Nov 15, 2006, 8:06 PM
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Alright, it's a slow day at work so I'll bite.
No, I do not agree with the original "no embedded images" decision, we (mods & users) voiced our opinion about it and reached a compromise which is pending implementation (there are more important functionality things taking up the programmers time right now).
For those of you not aware of it, the idea is that when you embed an image it will automatically be resized so that it doesn't screw up the thread. I like that even better than just regular embedded images (hated having to scroll sideways because someone linked a huge picture), but it will obviously take some time to code/test.
Even if that wasn't the case, there is a huge difference between listening to/respecting someone's opinion and doing everything they propose. Someone has to make the final call or nothing gets done, ever. Would you have us try to reach a consensus on everything before implementing anything?
-F
PS: I really appreciate the fact that this has remained a reasoned, civil discussion. Thanks.
-F
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coldclimb
Nov 15, 2006, 8:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Cool. How many of the mods agreed with the 'no embedded images' decision? Did YOU agree with it? Did any of you? DMT NONE that I know of -- including me.
Indeed, and Dingus, you are entirely correct in everything you say above. Thanks for being around man.
That said, it's a little too early to jump to conclusions about the new owners. Discussion is continuing, and we'll have to see how that turns out before we fly off the handle and accuse anyone of being dictatorial.
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wjca
Nov 15, 2006, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: Cool. How many of the mods agreed with the 'no embedded images' decision? Did YOU agree with it? Did any of you? DMT
How many of the mods agreed with the decision to fire Hillary?
How many defended her actions and stuck up for her?
How many stood up and said, "You fired Hillary for what she said without warning or conversation to find an alternate solution? Well, then I no longer wish to work here either and I quit"?
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thomasribiere
Nov 15, 2006, 9:46 PM
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to answer wjca :
I said I wanted her back.
I PMed her and she answered me. I answered back.
But I won't quit because she was fired even if I disagree. Just because I've here for yrs, because I have tons of work to do in the french data base that no on else will do.
ddt and sangiro might be the bosses, we might slightly or strongly disagree on some questions, as long as I'm not fired, I won't quit. I will quit when I'm tired of managing the route data base.
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fenix83
Moderator
Nov 15, 2006, 9:52 PM
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In reply to: How many of the mods agreed with the decision to fire Hillary? How many defended her actions and stuck up for her? How many stood up and said, "You fired Hillary for what she said without warning or conversation to find an alternate solution? Well, then I no longer wish to work here either and I quit"?
Your answers, in order
- Honestly; very, very few.
- Many, some more forcibly than others.
- As far as I know, none. I for one happen to think it is far more productive to talk things through and try to find a solution than to throw a tantrum and storm out. I firmly believe a lot of this was caused by inflamed tempers (on both sides of the fence) and snap comments/judgments, so adding fuel to the fire does not seem to be a smart move. Trying to call things down and find a solution does.
All of this has happened very quickly and knee-jerk reactions have been too common. Things seem to be settling down and cooler heads seem to be prevailing, so as long as the lines of communication are still open and progress is being made I will continue to try to be a part of it.
-F
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caughtinside
Nov 15, 2006, 10:00 PM
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heh. dingus's little parable cracked me up. Moreso when I read the subsequent posts.
Mods serve at the will of the masters. It should be obvious now how much past service and work count for. If you want to remain a mod that is, and volunteer your time to a for-profit website.
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thomasribiere
Nov 15, 2006, 10:17 PM
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^ I'm not sure whether you are ironic or not, and I'm not sure to fully understand the grammatical construction of your sentence, but work always counts. Past work and past service should as well.
Well it's 11:15 PM here and I'll go to bed I think. I've posted like 50 posts today between Mods, Suggestions, and Bugs, to try to answer users' questions, and I'm a bit tired.
Hopefully I work tomorrow and the site won't see me as much as today!
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