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detonator123
Oct 16, 2006, 9:10 PM
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Dr. Piton says to tie a prussik knot into the rope and clipped into gear every so many feet. In the book Speed Climbing, the authors say to clove hitch the rope to a piece of pro every so often.
The question is don't these two knots do the same thing? Wouldn't it be more of a hassle to bring prussik slings to tie in, when you could tie a clove hitch?
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timm
Oct 16, 2006, 9:24 PM
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No they don't do the same thing if I understand what you/they are talking about.
If you are talking about anchoring the rope every so many feet during an aid solo, the prussic slings made of lightweight cord serve to support the rope so that the weight of it does not cause the self belay device to feed on it's own.
I don't know if the Speed Climbing book is refering to based on your post but if you are saying to tie a clove hitch to achieve the same purpose of supporting the rope, then be aware that the clove hitch will cause you to have a higher fall factor and you will lose much of the dynamic qualities of the rope by anchoring it so many feet. The prussic method does not introduce a high fall factor as the lightweight slings are designed to break in the event of a fall.
Maybe you can eloborate exactly what is the context of the Dr Piton and Speed Climbing comments.
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lambone
Oct 17, 2006, 6:35 AM
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on Supertopo.com Werner Braun warned against clove hitching lead peices when aid soloing. He said the clove hitch can get smashed into the rock by the biner and chop the rope. said it has been the cause of at least on death on El Cap.
Considering he's been on YOSAR for like 30 years, I'll take his word for it.
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holdplease2
Oct 18, 2006, 1:50 AM
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Seconding Lambone here. There are far to many soloists who also use the clove hitch as thier point of attachment to the anchor as well, based on discussions with Werner.
If you use another type of knot, like a directional figure eight or butterfly knot, the loop of rope that the biner is clipped into can get the chop and the rope is still a continuous system to the backup knot into the ancor.
With the clove you're just done for.
There are two reasons for a soloist to need to connect the rope to a piece of gear other than the anchor, and different appropriate solutions, IMO.
1) The rope begins to self-feed through the belay device. This can be dangerous, as you may not realize it is happening. You can have a 30 foot loop of slack at the anchor! Not good.
* One way to deal with this is to put a very long prussik type of knot on the piece of pro and the rope. However, know that if you fall, that prussik will go up through the gear, and if it is too short it will catch the rope. This could do two thingds: 1) Burn/Weld/Perhaps cut the rope (nylon on nylon) and 2) could remove dynamic rope from the system, making your fall harder than you intended or 3) rip your pro out of the wall if it is not placed for an upward directional fall. Read: Many nuts, dicy cams)
* Therefore, I use the second option. Simply take a small rubber band, clip it to the biner on the pro, wrap it around the rope 1-2 times, then clip it back into the biner. It can hold the weight of 80+ feet of rope and prevent the self feed. It will not "shorten" the rope in the event of a fall. It can't cut the rope, and you don't have to dink around passing it when you are cleaning. It breaks when you start to clean but usually stays stuck on the rope. Put it in your pocket and don't litter. :)
2) The other reason to connect the rope to a piece of pro when on solo lead is to protect yourself from having to jug over sharp edges. You would hang the rope on a solid point, either butterflying it (not cloving it) to a piece of pro just befor the roof or applying a loooong klimheist knot to the piece of pro before the sharp point. Don't forget about protecting your self from sharp edges in the event of a fall, as well. Use your judgement, and if you must isolate a "chop" hazard, you can butterfly the rope to pieces of pro on either side of the sharp object so that the rope cannot weight across it when you jug OR when (if) you fall
I carry 2 rubber bands per pitch and usually a klimheist loop on my rack to handle self-feeding lines and potential sharp edges.
There are alot of opinions on this, and I'm not saying I'm right. Its just what I like to do.
-Kate.
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ricardol
Nov 28, 2006, 11:48 AM
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what kate said ..
i find that it depends on the type of piece that i'm going to re-belay to .. wether i use a prussik or a knot.. (thanks for the info -- i guess a butterfly knot would be the better knot to use?) ..
.. if the piece is a bomber bolt .. and the pitch is not too bad .. then i'll probably use a knot ..
.. if the piece is a cam .. and/or the pitch is a bit heads up .. then i'll use a prussik..
your prussiks need to be long enough to allow the rope to stretch .. i've taken falls above a rebelay and the system has worked well every-time. (pete has the length on one of his posts -- i'd get one out and measure if the gear wasbn't in the basement) -- i think about 6 feet of looped cord should be plenty? --
.. don't take my word for it -- go out and verify that its right before you trust your life to it.
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iamthewallress
Nov 28, 2006, 7:36 PM
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Since I don't climb particularly hard aid, there is almost always a big bomber A0 peice (i.e. a big bolt, well placed camalot, etc.) on any given pitch that I'm on. I don't worry too much about just tieing an eight for a redirect in that situation. I'll typically use a screamer to make any potential fall above softer, although it probably doesn't matter that much whether I do this or not.
Velcro quickdraws are a nice addition to the bag of tricks that my bf taught me. They're sweet when you want a draw that you can bust apart either to minimize fall factor or to put on your first peice to run the rope up to your self-belay (to keep the rope from unstacking itself and falling out of the bag) so that you don't get stopped cold if a knot/kink comes up out of the bag. Just make sure that the vecro isn't too strong.
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rgold
Nov 28, 2006, 8:40 PM
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I make no claims to being an experienced soloist, and in fact I've climbed relatively few walls and soloed none. I have done a reasonable amount of roped soloing of free climbs, mostly short ones. I haven't needed to "rebelay" the rope to any pieces in order to avoid sharp edges, the only issue I've had to deal with preventing the weight of the rope below from pulling slack through the belay device.
In order to do this, I tie a tight compact slip not in the rope above the biner. When the rope tries to pull slack through the belay device, the slip knot rests on the biner and keeps this from happening. If a fall happens, the slip knot pulls out and you have the full rope length available for absorbing the fall energy.
I'm don't know what is involved in the clove hitch cutting during a fall; presumably it is a disasterous combination of the tension in the knot and the wedging of the knot between carabiner and rock. I find it hard to imagine that the slip knot could somehow break in a way that wouldn't already have broken the rope, but a failure of imagination is hardly a guarantee of safety either. All I can say is I feel comfortable with the system, at least until someone explains a glaring defect I've overlooked.
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stymingersfink
Nov 28, 2006, 10:58 PM
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use kate's suggestion two, in which she mentions a klemheist knot. similar to the prussic in that it is a friction knot, but dfferent in that it is directional.
Directional you ask? Well, tied properly a klemheist will grip the rope with a downward pull, yet will allow the rope to slip through the hitch with an upward pull. Be sure to leave just a little slack in the rope between the klemheist and the anchor. A lead fall could result in your lead line being held taut between the hitch and the anchor, which would need to be loosened a tad in order to break down the anchor later.
Utilising knots such as an "8" or "butterfly" mid-pitch removes rope from your shock absorption system, resulting in higher loads on your top piece of gear in the event of a fall, thereby reducing your margin of safety.
Utilising hitches such as the clove are fine, as long as you're not averse to increasing the possibilities of impacting the ground at a high rate of speed, thereby making a bad day for more than just YOU. Please, be consderate of others.
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ptpp
Nov 2, 2007, 1:32 AM
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Trying to clear up a few of the clusterfucks here in the aid forum, and link you over to a few of my answers.
I have tried to explain a few things here about the Klemheist rebelay technique and the Continuous Loop system. Please click the link, and if you have any questions for me, ask them over there.
You will need to scroll down to the Oct 31 and Nov 1, 2007 posts, but there you will find detailed explanation regarding how to use the Klemheist rebelay.
And not only would I never advocate using a prusik as a rebelay - only a Klemheist - I would never spell prusik with two s's!
Cheers,
Dr. Piton
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