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apollodorus
Feb 28, 2002, 11:58 AM
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Either this topic has been deleted, or the links are broken.
Do you Chongo Ratchet the pig up the rope, or use some other system?
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wigglestick
Feb 28, 2002, 3:42 PM
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From my understanding of the far-end hauler, which is ingenious and something I probably never would have thought of on my own, is that you get a 3:1 advantage rather than the 2:1 that you get with the chongo ratchet. The system looks similar to this:
Except you have to imagine it upside down with the pig being attached to the top locking biner and the anchor at the top takes the place of the big weight looking thing. You would also want to have a real wall-hauler or mini/pro-traxion instead of having the pulley and ascender separate like they are in this picture.
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apollodorus
Mar 1, 2002, 12:54 AM
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OK, I turned the gizmo upside down and hung the load from the locker; the vertical line leads up to the anchors.
And then the lower jumar and pulley should be a traxion; this is what holds the pig between lifts.
Thanks.
[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2002-02-28 17:02 ]
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ergophobe
Jul 16, 2002, 11:26 PM
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Just for the record, the system in the drawing is 2:1 not 3:1 as ... whoever it was suggested.
Speaking **strictly as a BWT** who has never used this system, I believe the advantage is not mechanical but is primarily that as a soloist you can haul from near the bag and get it unstuck, rather than having to jug up to your belay, haul, get back stuck, rap down, unstick, jug up to belay. Repeat as necessary until vomiting is induced.
Tom
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spike
Jul 16, 2002, 11:45 PM
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Hi ergophobe,
I just got done soloing West Face Leaning Tower. I used the Far End Haul on my pig using a Mini-Traxion, backed up with a butterfly knot on a designated locking carabiner. After I did a pitch, I would set my lead line and then set up my haul using a Pro-Traxion (with locking carabine on bottom to keep it closed). I didn't want to tighten up the static haul line to much, because I still had to attached my Gri Gri to the static line to rap down to the start of the pitch. Plus with the over hanging nature of the wall, I kinda liked rapping down until I was parallel with anchor (like 30' from the wall most of times) and then pulling my self back to the wall. When I got to the pig, I would then pull up the slack in the static haul line (through the Mini-Traxion), re-tie the butterfly knot and back it up to the designated locker. I would grab the excess tail of haul line and use it as a lower out line as I untied my load release knot. I haven't used the Far End Haul on a bad slab haul section yet --- might try it on the last pitch of The Prow next week.
Richard / SPIKE
[ This Message was edited by: spike on 2002-07-16 16:47 ]
[ This Message was edited by: spike on 2002-07-18 15:25 ]
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passthepitonspete
Aug 3, 2002, 1:42 PM
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Just moving this to the top of the list.
I took a really swell photo of my Far End Hauler in use when I soloed Shortest Straw a couple weeks ago.
I have emailed it to Bob Shaftoe, and he will be coming up with another one of his swell drawings.
So please stand by. I have delayed answering this until now because I wanted it perfect. Now I've got a perfect photo, or near perfect anyway.
Thanks, y'all.
And isn't that Hillary (climbsomething) about the most amazing little HOTTIE you ever saw! Dang, that chick-ee-poo can rant!
I'm her #1 Fan.
Check out her ranting in that post where numbnuts called me the Canadian Assassin - it's in the Community Forum.
Oh yeah, and whatever you do - don't climb with me!
I'm DANGEROUS!
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!
I want to get this thing answered asap.
The 2:1 mechanical advantage effectively becomes 3:1 when you pull up on the pig at the same time.
Get it?
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twrock
Aug 28, 2002, 1:56 PM
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I was fooling around today with the far-end hauling system setup and took a couple of pictures of it.
The first pic has Rocky far-end hauling his "Coke light" using a 2:1 system. Do notice that Rocky is wearing a helmet. Although not CE certified, at least there is something on his head.
http://www.geocities.com/taiwan_rock/far-end-hauling.html
Since Rocky soon discovered that his unique physique and bizarre dimensions precluded him from hauling such a heavy load , I set him up with a 4:1 system (picture two). Soon he was at the belay, happily chugging away his 0 calorie, non-alcoholic drink. However, Rocky spent a month raising the thing because at a 4:1 ratio, the Coke light sure moves slowly up the cliff!
Now if I had my complete stash of gear with me, I could have used another single pulley for each system, and even better yet, a "wall-hauler" instead of the ascenders. But alas, a bundle of my funner gear is at my in-laws house, and you use what you got. (The Petzl "Speed" dual pulley is used for a zip line at the camp where I work.)
My purpose in linking these pics is to ask if the pictures illustrate the far-end hauling system correctly or if I've got something screwed up. Additionally I wanted an excuse to brag about winning Rocky for my daughter at an amusement park by bashing one of those bell ringing games with a huge sledgehammer. When you don't have many claims to fame, you are always looking for some kind of excuse to toot your own horn. (Incidentally, I rang the bell on the first hit of two; on the next hit I strained my back which hurt for the rest of the family vacation.)
Disclaimer: Do do this at home. It's better than trying to figure it out after your bag is hopelessly stuck.
(edit: tried multiple methods for linking the pics including the "img" code; seems that when the "http://" gets automatically added to the link, Geocities won't let you see it; frustrating)
[ This Message was edited by: twrock on 2002-08-29 06:05 ]
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climbingcowboy
Aug 29, 2002, 6:48 AM
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OK I'm gonna ask some stupid Questions now. First of all I havent done a wall yet but am getting very close to it, I'm trying to learn all this hauling stuff before i get up there. So in the pics above is rocky actualy hauling next to the bag and ascending at the same time as he hauls the bag? the rope leaves rockey goes through a jumar (or simalar device) then to the pig then through another jumar then its anchored to the top of the pitch you just lead so your both ascending at the same time on a sepaerate line? Thanks for helping this bigwaller in training.
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twrock
Aug 29, 2002, 12:54 PM
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Hey, that makes two of us asking "stupid" questions. (BTW, I know you've heard the old saying that the only stupid question is the one you never ask; I just wish they'd have convinced all those kids who laughed at us in elementary school that our question really wasn't all that stupid.)
Ok, have another look. This time there are two new pictures of Rocky with an additional purple rope that he is ascending next to the Coke light (you just can't see his ascender, aider, grigri, backup knot, and whatever, but trust me, they are there somewhere). It's the rappel rope he used to lower down to the stuck Coke light.
www.geocities.com/taiwan_rock/far-end-hauling.html
If I've wired this thing correctly, Rocky pulls down on the pink rope he's grabbing, raising the Coke light. He then releases the rope, raises the upper ascender, and pulls down on the pink rope again. All the while he is pulling down on the pink rope, he is pulling up on the Coke light for that extra lift. (But since Rocky's hands are rubber banded to the pink rope, he really can't do much pulling up on the Coke light.
Now, please stand by while we attempt to get the people in the know to critique this thing. I'm just guessing here for the most part anyway. (Surprising I've lived this long!)
One more thing: these emoticons can be really "cute" or just plain obnoxious. I haven't decided which yet. I think I'll keep using them until I really get sick of them.
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freeclmr
Aug 30, 2002, 2:03 PM
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Ah so…..
Do not ret freecrmr’s name at reft confuse you….
This is Doctah Piton typing at you in mock-Taiwanese on a raptop as we drive to the Varrey to go rock crimbing…..
Note the bord text which is Dr. Piton harrmark….
….which is Dr. Piton harrmark….
…..which is way Dr. Piton rikes to type.
Hmm, frying squirrel has round eyes….
[OK, enough already. Sorry, dude. “Politically correct” I ain’t… Forgive me my transgressions, I am pumped because I am en route to the Centre of the Universe….
Resume like normal Hoser accent, eh?]
First of all, Brian is going to copy and paste this thing into the post for me, so if the paragraphs don’t line up properly, it’s all his fault! Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
So like I’m doing this from memory because I’ve logged off and we’re driving down the highway.
First of all, let’s review the purpose of the Far End Hauler:
It is only used while soloing. There is no benefit if you are climbing with [a] partner(s), unless you are Leading In Blocks. When Tom and I climbed Excalibur, Tom took off on solo lead as I was hauling. [Note that Tom had recently climbed off the couch after eighteen years, and high on El Cap he was making his first-ever rope solo lead on his homemade cams as I hauled the pigs. When one of the pigs got stuck, he was not there to help me haul, and I had to fight the thing myself. If leading in blocks, use the Far End Hauler since you are essentially solo hauling.]
So then the Far End Hauler is a way to haul your pig FROM the pig when your pig gets stuck under a roof while solo hauling.
To rescue your pig, you must rappel the lead rope to get beside the pig, and then operate the Far End Hauler from beside the pig. You will get a 2:1 mechanical advantage as you winch the pig up the haul line. The haul line does not move – it’s stationary. But the pig moves up the haul line.
In Dr. Piton parlance, this is a Very Cool Thing! I used this system for the first time at the top of the Trip when I soloed it, and it was so way cool to easily haul the pig up and over two nasty roofs! I also used it to haul the last two pitches of Sea of Dreams by myself since my partner was asleep – he had led through the night so I could make my airplane flight.
And oh yeah, on Sea of Dreams, Ammon dropped us a toprope on the last two pitches!
The way you have set up the Far End Hauler is more or less correct.
Replace the coke can with the pig.
Replace the pulley plus ascender assembly with an upside-down “compound pulley” like a Wall Hauler if you like.
Here are a few things you really must do:
Add a pulley to the upper ascender to reduce friction. It’ll be too hard to haul otherwise.
[You should have a pulley with you at all times while soloing so that if you fall off, you can return to your high point using a Body Hoist made the same way – you are attached to the rope with a Grigri as your solo belay device, and you attach an ascender, crab and pulley assembly above you. You haul yourself back up using a 2:1 mechanical advantage. This way, if the piece you’re jugging on blows and you take a further lead fall, you will be held by your Grigri and not merely an ascender. Taking lead falls which are held by toothed cams is emphatically not recommended by Dr. Piton!
You must tie a backup knot in the haul line below the [ascender + inverted pulley] in case the ascender slips. Use an alpine butterfly knot. As you lower out the pig, it is this knot which will hold the pig’s weight
You must insert a swivel between the locker on the inverted ascender [or compound pulley] and the locker that suspends the pig, or you will be most sorry as the whole thing twists to bits
The alpine butterfly backup knot must be attached to the locker above the swivel using another transient locker, or else the haul line will twist around the pig when you lower it out as the pig rolls across the face - duh
You emphatically do not need the fancy-shmancy 4:1 Far End Haul! You have a 2:1 mechanical advantage already, which effectively becomes 3:1 when you lift up on the pig as you haul.
Note that the whole Far End Hauler system gives you an Adjustable Suspension Point above your pig. When you complete the pitch, you will rappel the haul line to descend to your lower belay station. Use the Far End Hauler to attach the pig to the haul line. If the pitch is a hundred-and-fifty feet long, and you have a two hundred foot haul line as you should, then you will be attaching the pig at the one-fifty-foot point, thus leaving yourself an extra fifty feet of haul line. Your extra fifty feet of haul line becomes your Lower-Out Line. ”Get it?”
Now, when you have finished leading the pitch and need to descend to clean it, Traditional Technology would have you rappel your haul line after having first put the haul line through your hauling device.
This meant that your life would be held by the toothed cam of something like a Wall Hauler, a device rated to the astonishing strength of one kilonewton.
Sheesh.
The only safe way to descend is to have an upper hauling device that is rated better, like say a Pro-Traxion which you have rigged the right way according to Petzl’s recently issued warning, or else to rappel from a knot.
If you have a 2:1 Hauling Ratchet, then you can attach the haul line to the upper belay station Power Point using a knot on a transient locker. You then rappel from the knot, rather than from the haul line being held by a toothed cam of some sort. When you later lower the pig out onto the knot that you rappelled from, and thus allow the pig to hang in space from the knot while you jug and clean the pitch, then when you return to the top of the pitch, you can lift the weighted haul line [which should feel something like a steel rebar] with the 2:1 zed-cord. Do you ”get it?”
This is the safe way to rappel your haul line while solo climbing.
The Better Way is to first put your haul line through a Kong Block Roll which is a compound pulley hauling device rated for live loads of up to 10 KN, and rappel from that with total confidence.
Needless to say, this is my preferred means of descent.
You operate the Far End Hauler like this:
When the pig gets stuck, grab your jugs [which are with you at all times when you are on the wall], a spare ascender which you should have when you solo, and then rappel the lead rope using your Grigri until you are beside the pig
Untie the backup alpine butterfly knot in the haul line
Attach either your spare ascender or a klemheist knot to the haul line approximately five to ten feet above the pig
Add a carabiner and pulley to the ascender, and run the free end of the haul line through the pulley to form a “zed” in the haul line
Put your two other jugs onto the free end of the haul line, and start jugging. Up goes the pig as you guide it around the obstacle that it got stuck under
Pull up on the pig with one hand if you need a 3:1 advantage
Your Grigri remains on the lead rope as your backup
When the zed in the haul line has closed, you must reset the system by sliding the spare ascender or klemheist knot back up the haul line
You must at the same time reset your lard ass by jugging up the lead rope using your Grigri and one ascender
The Far End Hauler is FUNDAMENTAL when you solo big walls! Unless your wall is overhanging 100% of the way and you are absolutely certain your pig will never get stuck, then you should set up the Far End Hauler BEFORE you leave the ground.
Even if your pig never gets stuck, the advantage of the adjustable suspension point is tremendous!
I am Dr. Piton,
And guess what?
I just entered Yosemite National Park as I typed this post!! Smell the pines, the air is crisp!
Woo-hooooo!
[Thanks to Brian for submitting this!]
(This post was edited by cliffhanger9 on Mar 27, 2013, 12:49 AM)
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twrock
Aug 31, 2002, 3:55 AM
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Dr. P, thanks for the review and pointers.
Yes, unfortunately I don't have the proper gear with me here in Taiwan (more pulleys, 'wallhauler', etc.) to illustrate it correctly. And, yes, the 4:1 is a joke (if you've got that much gear with you, I definitely don't want to be your partner!).
Re: the stereotypic Cantonese accent (Taiwanese people don't have that particular accent), I'm of German descent, so it won't bother me at all! But of course I can't speak for my friends. If you ever come out to Taiwan, they can take it up with you.
Have fun in the big ditch. Wish I could be there too. Maybe next year.
(BTW, did I mention where Rocky came from?)
[ This Message was edited by: twrock on 2002-08-30 20:59 ]
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passthepitonspete
Sep 12, 2002, 2:40 PM
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OK, OK, so I don't "get" the Taiwanese accent, eh? But if you're in Taiwan, can you do that pencil twirling trick with your fingers? I learned that one in class twenty years ago, and can still do it - just have to use a dulled pencil so I don't stab myself every time I drop it!
THANK YOU to everyone who has PM'd me, and who has helped me in Yosemite!
I intend to write a very detailed trip report and thankyou note just as soon as possible, but right now I MUST run back to Yos with karlbaba - I have read every single PM I have been sent with great thanks - ladies, please keep writing!!!
HUGE thanks to Brian freeclmr for posting my post perfectly, complete with my harrmark bord type.
I used this Far End Hauler on the third pitch of Lunar Eclipse - my ledge was flagged, and when the pigs caught under a small roof, the brothers McNeely - Ammon (elcapbuzz) and Gabe positively HOWLED with delight at my apparent predicament -
their cries of "Death to Wee-Wee!" and howls of Diabolical Dr. Evil Laughter wafting upwards in the wind.
Bastards.
But I fixed them, and my situation, with the Far End Hauler.
So Dr. P. gets the last laugh -
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!! [d.d.e.l.]
I have met with, climbed with, and most importantly been helped by, many many RC.com members, members who helped me hump my pigs to the base, and members who helped me bring my gear back down, members who have bought me supper and beer and so much more!
HUGE thanks to everyone - details to follow - must leave now.
Will write when I can! Thanks again, eh?
Your mate,
Pete
who heads up on Scorched Earth in couple days with Tom.
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twrock
Sep 12, 2002, 3:13 PM
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Alas, no pencil spinning for me. I lack the finger dexterity for such fine motor skilled activities. But heh, I can rip the flesh off of them in a finger lock. Does that count for anything?
"Go Climb a Rock", ya hoser.
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bshaftoe
Sep 12, 2002, 11:35 PM
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Got some preliminary drawings done, waiting for Pete to critique.
Perhaps a preview wouldn't hurt.
[ This Message was edited by: bshaftoe on 2002-09-17 22:35 ]
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passthepitonspete
Nov 4, 2002, 12:28 AM
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The photo above is actually a link to itself - a photo of the Far End Hauler I set up just before I left the ground on my solo of Lunar Eclipse.
Be sure to click on the photo to read the detailed explanation that goes along with it!
[ This Message was edited by: passthepitonspete on 2002-12-19 15:20 ]
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twrock
Nov 4, 2002, 5:22 AM
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Hey Bill, nice drawing! (Don't know how I missed it before, but I saw it when I had a look at Dr. P's recent pic.) Using a Petzl Basic or other smaller "rope grab" up at the top might also give you a few more inches of upward movement per pull, but then again, you might not want yet another piece of different gear.
BTW, for anyone who is confused, the drawing above in the 02-28 post by apollodorus has a little flaw with which side of the rope the bottom ascender is hooked to. I believe it should be connected to the rope on the right instead of where it is.
(edited to remove the comment about the keeper cord on the wallhauler; Explorer resized the pic and things didn't look clear; at full size things are very clear!)
Thanks for the illustration Bill.
[ This Message was edited by: twrock on 2002-11-04 16:27 ]
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twrock
Nov 16, 2002, 1:57 AM
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Follow-up post.
I wrote to Petzl about their diagram that apollodorus shows on the 02-28 post. The diagram in that post is an inverted version of the one that appears in the Petzl documentation for the Basic/Ascension. I thought it look strange and would create strange forces on the gear and be inefficient. Here's the reply I got:
Quote:Thanks for contacting us on this. As you know, Petzl ascenders can be combined with other equipment to create efficient auxiliary systems. The advantages of the 3:1 hauling system as shown in the Petzl literature are:
1) uses no gear other than that you might be expected to have with you; 2) uses a minimum of equipment; 3) very efficient.
Though it may seem an odd setup, there is no problem in applying compressive forces to the equipment. The carabiner linking BASIC and FIXE pulley should be a locking oval. Putting the BASIC on the other side of the pulley would require a means of anchoring and weighting the descender. It should not be simply inverted and attached via carabiner directly to the pulley/carabiner arrangment. This setup introduces friction and inefficiency into the system.
Note that I did not ask about its application in a far end hauling system. I only asked about the basic being pulled back toward the pulley and the strange tensions that might create in the system.
So is Petzl's set up the better way? I don't have a Fixe or other pulley that small, so I can't test it out myself. If anyone with a Fixe and a Basic is bored some cold fall/winter day, maybe you can try out their exact setup and give us a review.
(edit- Did you notice they called it a 3:1 not a 2:1? That discussion came up earlier in the thread.)
[ This Message was edited by: twrock on 2002-11-15 18:03 ]
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timpanogos
Jan 15, 2003, 12:02 AM
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Dang, I was surprised at how hard 1:1 hauling is - only had about 90 pounds in the pig - found an overhang - and sure enough - got the pig stuck - and wouldn't you know it, it was not far end practice day. Woops, anyway, got the feel for rapping down and yanking, cussing, and doing dangerous things to get it loose (i.e. pulling it up on the shelf above the overhang and jugging back up hoping that it did not take the 8 to 10' plunge on the static haul line while I hurried back up.
Far end hauler - too complex or too much gear you say?? Bull pucky.
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taxexile
Jan 22, 2003, 9:20 AM
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Quote:Now, when you have finished leading the pitch and need to descend to clean it, Traditional Technology would have you rappel your haul line after having first put the haul line through your hauling device.
This meant that your life would be held by the toothed cam of something like a Wall Hauler, a device rated to the astonishing strength of one kilonewton.
Before rapping, why not simply back-up your pulley with a knot if you have any doubts about its strength?
Pull a couple of feet of line through the compound pulley, tie a Butterfly knot in the downstream side, and clip the loop into the power point. This is analogous to the back-up for the Far-End Hauler.
You can then safely rap from a rinky-dink pulley without going grey.
Or am I missing something?
[ This Message was edited by: taxexile on 2003-01-22 01:22 ]
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timpanogos
Jan 23, 2003, 7:35 AM
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I assumed that this was the case also - there is no sense in engaging the toothed cam at all when rapping right?? (which on the kong - cammed is rated for 5kn down the line (verses 15kn down the line on uncammed).
edit, was not clear on kn
Printed on face of Kong 30kn up, 15kn each side (cam disengaged) 10kn up, 5kn each side (engaged). 8mm min, 12mm max
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2003-01-23 06:00 ]
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taxexile
Jan 23, 2003, 8:59 AM
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Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I do engage the cam. The knot I describe is just a backup in case the compound pulley fails: you want some slack on the downstream side. If you don't engage the cam, when you release the pig, the line will be taught on the downstream side. You will then have to really fight to start a 1:1 haul. It's not a problem if you intend to haul with the 2:1 ratchet.
Caveat: I fall firmly within the definition of "BWT" (and quite possible "wanker"). Maybe somebody who actually knows what they are talking about might like to comment.
Regarding the Kong. Does it really just have a rating of 5kN from the cam? Even my rinky-dink Minitraxion is rated 4kN from the cam(and 10kN from the pin). Has Pete been exaggerating the strength of this mythical beast?
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timpanogos
Jan 23, 2003, 2:49 PM
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This was total BWT by me, as I have yet to rap on the loaded kong. Thinking this through again, if you do as I suggested (alpine butterfly on rope-bucket side clipped to locker on PP) you would not weight the kong much at all, but load the PP. This would cock the kong on an angle and bind the rope at the top and at the pulley side heading down to the cam. This would not be optimal on the kong, because the bind at the top would be against the outer plates spring loaded biner clip.
But sitting here looking at it, if you threaded the cam (disengaged), left the swing plate wide open, and tied in with the butterfly – you are all setup, but not loading the kong at all. Yea you are going to have to engage the cam and get the pig up a ½” or so to unload the butterfly, shut the top plate and go to town. The 6” of plate from the pulley to the top biner should be perfect for a 4” or smaller loop in the butterfly.
Dang, this Kong does appear to still be ETS.
Chad
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2003-01-23 07:02 ]
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passthepitonspete
Feb 23, 2003, 6:52 PM
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Two comments, gentlemen:
1. Yes, you do engage the cam on the 1:1 hauling device up top before you rappel the haul line. If you didn't, then the haul line would jam tight against the Power Point, and with the weight of the pig later hanging off of it, you would never be able to begin hauling! This will become painfully obvious the first time you haul a heavy load. If your practice load does not contain enough rocks, you might be lulled into a false sense of security.
So what you need to do is leave just enough slack between the cam and the Power Point backup so that you can begin hauling, but not so much slack that if the toothed cam failed you would shock load the system [a].
This is the easier way, and also the Better Way if you were smart enough to buy a Kong compound pulley.
Note, Duncan, that you do not use a butterfly knot to attach the haul line to the Power Point just above your 1:1 hauling device. You actually take the locker on top of the haul line and unclip it off of your ass [Traditional Technology] or unclip it off of your Solo Tag Rack [the]Better Way] and you attach the very top end of the haul line to the Power Point using this designated Haul Line Transient Locker.
However the safest way is to merely clip the top end of the haul line straight into the Power Point, and then later use the zed cord of your 2:1 Hauling Ratchet to lift up enough haul line to put the haul line through the 1:1 device. This way you rap directly off of a knot.
Note: It is for this reason that your zed cord needs to be about 3 m x 7mm - long enough to lower down 1.5 m to get enough slack lifted, and fat enough to be able to jug. It also needs to be this long and fat for when you cross knots in the haul line while you are hauling.
2. Here is your Dr. Piton Homework Assignment: I need you to go back one page, and please click on the photo. The photo is a link to itself, and I want you to read the potential problem that Bryan has mentioned whereby the toothed cam of the upside-down Wall Hauler could actually shred the haul line. [This has never happened to me]
I have an idea I would like someone to try, which is to replace the upside-down Wall Hauler with an upside-down Grigri. I'm wondering how bad the friction will be to overcome.
You may think that the Far End Hauler is more trouble than it is worth.
I believe that you will change your mind the first time your pig gets stuck when you are solo hauling either on a solo ascent or while your partner is Leading In Blocks, or when you haul something like the pitch up to Thanksgiving Ledge on Lurking Fear, or the final pitch of The Trip [also Native Son, Scorched Earth, and Aurora].
Have a click, and tell me what you think, eh?
Cheers,
The Doc
[Coming soon to a magazine near you...]
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