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adklimber
Nov 27, 2006, 6:58 PM
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For me atleast it is gym season, Dec. - Feb. This means it is time for training. What I am wondering is what you guys are doing and why?
I have had success with Rockprodigy's periodization program and Fluxus' (SCC) movement training methods.
I am not sure what to do with the time I have (climbing three times a week for 2 - 3 hours). It seems fluxus' training is the ideal (fun and progressive compared to having a 'peak' season), however, looking through the book it seems time (a lot of it) is necessary.
Any thoughts?
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minn8325
Nov 27, 2006, 7:13 PM
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Your wieght articulations should mimic the kinds of movements you do when you climb. Remeber train to be a stronger climber not a better weight bodybuilder.
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lena_chita
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Nov 27, 2006, 7:14 PM
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I am trying to do the SCC-based training. "Trying" is a key word here. I definitely don't have enough time to do it in the most optimal way. I am climbing 3 times a week, but one time is with kids, so I spend most of the time spotting a 3 yo and talking an 8yo though tough attitude instead of training. And on the other 2 nights sometimes the social aspects of gym climbing get in the way of training.
But oh well, it is still fun... I am not making money from climbing, and nothing is on the line. No catastrophe awaits me if I don't get quite the improvement I'm hoping for.
Haivng said that, I do feel that I have improved in the past 2 months (my gym-only season started in mid= October :( ), I am determined to keep working on technique and movement training, and I'm really looking forward to getting back on the real rock and seeing exactly how much I have improved.
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adklimber
Nov 28, 2006, 4:43 PM
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minn8325 wrote: Your wieght articulations should mimic the kinds of movements you do when you climb. Remeber train to be a stronger climber not a better weight bodybuilder.
I am not sure what you are getting at here. The point of training is to become a better rock climber. What do you mean by "weight articulations". I don't think either training method presented would help a bodybuilder, they are climbing specific. Both of what Fluxus and rockprodigy advicate are seperate theories of training.
Maybe you can expand your thoughts.
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cam
Nov 28, 2006, 5:00 PM
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Well, I don't train in the classic sence of the word. I find "training" to be quite boreing, so to pass the colder months, I do some gym climbing but I also climb ice. I have found that it compliments the indoor routine quite nicely. Come spring, I feel strong and energetic and since I started doing ice, I don't heve the "lead head" that I used to get at the beginning of each rock season. If you have the option, ice may be a good winter training tool for you as well.
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minn8325
Nov 29, 2006, 6:07 AM
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My bad I am a sports science student I assumed the "gym" was weight trainning. With most convental athlete the off season is for tainning to get stronger for next year. If you climb that much taking a little break to balance out the strength gained from the previous season with the rest of your body can be very helpfull in having a stronger next season and put you in a better place mentaly.
where are rockprodigy and fluxus's program at? I would like to see them
(This post was edited by minn8325 on Nov 29, 2006, 6:08 AM)
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dlintz
Nov 29, 2006, 7:01 AM
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My winter training plan just got cancelled this evening. I broke my wrist while bouldering on my friend's woodie....2 months in a cast. 
d.
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adklimber
Nov 29, 2006, 8:15 PM
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rockprodigy's article is the link below.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Training_and_Technique/The_Making_of_a_Rockprodigy__258.html
Fluxus has a book titled, The Self Coached Climber. Buy it over Amazon or go to your local book store and order it.
Dlintz - sorry about the injury. That sucks!
(This post was edited by adklimber on Nov 29, 2006, 8:19 PM)
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hibby11
Nov 29, 2006, 8:44 PM
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I have a very simple training technique that has proven to work for me until now so i'll probably stick with it. It includes warming up on anything easier. Doing about 3 routes a grade or so below my hardest redpoint. Working a route at or above my limit until I top out. Finally roping up and climbing a route as many times up and down as I can without touching the ground for two sets.
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fluxus
Nov 29, 2006, 8:51 PM
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adklimber
Nov 30, 2006, 4:22 PM
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fluxus wrote: This is a good topic, if time is an issue its o.k. to trim back in oder to meet one's schedule. There are many different ways to do this. I always had my climbers start each new training season by reviewing what was acomplished in the last season and then filling out the performance reflections and goal evaluation forms that are included on the DVD. Having a concrete idea of where you have been, and what your goals are is the best way to form a plan for the next several months and to stay motivated for the gym climbing that you will be doing for the next several months. if folks have specific questions let me know.
I have done the goal evaluation and I feel I have made some short, mid and long term goals. My weekly training is as follows, and I was wondering what you thought. My main goal, apart from sending certain problems, are geared towards elevating my bouldering base. For example I want to be able to C.I.R. V5 - 6's (sorry about the spray, but we can deal).
Here it goes Fluxus, what do you think? I am not putting down every minute, but my warm-up is running on a treadmill followed with 20 min of ARCing.
Tues. CIR 10 - 15 problems
Wed. rest (active)
Thur. VIR
Fri. rest
Sat. *Threshold bouldering and onsights
Sun. Rock Rings (weighted at home- will this help or hurt?)
Mon. rest (active)
Threshold bouldering meaning working problems that are above my level 2-3 grades.
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minn8325
Nov 30, 2006, 6:39 PM
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Ok I have a couple questons I am new to climbing but not to trainning(sports science/Physicla education major). I read rock prodigy'0 articles and he speaks of periodazation but nothing of 1 rep maximum wich is the foundation of periodazation The whole point of periodzation at a bare bones level is consant safe strength gains. This is achieved through stair stepping micro cycles within your macro cycles. The soul purpose of the differnt periods is just to keep your overall body muscle well rounded and internal preasures even. The thing I need explained to me is
Why would climbers want to try to achieve hypertrophy, the main puprose of Hypertrophy is it makes you big and showy/Heavy this seems counterproductive in a mainly aerobic endurance based sport. Profesinal athletes do not train for hypertrophy unless they need weight...ie. Line backers, lacross players, any contact sport where you need to be able to drive through other players. The best example I can think of is track athletes or swimmers, and even power lifters they usualy look half as strong as body builders but you put them in the gym side by side and they anialate B.B.ers
You have a DVD Fluxus so I assume you know your stuff. If you send me the ins and outs of what is needed in high level climbing I could really add alot to his program making it very very climbing specific
I am not brow beating his program it is good just trying to fill in the gaps and make it more efficent.
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overlord
Nov 30, 2006, 6:45 PM
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we climbers want hypetrophy (mostly) only in finger flexors (there are some that also feel the need to develop other muscles). those muscles are pretty small AND weak in average nonclimbers, so we need to develop them. you can train maximum recruitment, but it wont do you any good if there are no fibers to recruit.
and weight gains are pretty small since the muscles were talking about arent exactly on the same scale as your quadriceps.
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nedsurf
Nov 30, 2006, 8:06 PM
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Well, I have to finally have that hernia surgery I have been putting off for the last 10 months. No training for me until at least six weeks. sigh.
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minn8325
Dec 3, 2006, 1:03 AM
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First thing to adress you never gain more muscle fiber. You always have the same amount from birth to death. The only thing that changes is the size of them. Hypertrophy does increase diameter but does not give you anymore. ultimatly decreaing range of motion and increasing water retention.
Hope fully fluxus will corect me if I am wrong here about "climbing" strength but max power and hypertrophy does not make sense the burn you feel is from lactic acid build up there is no dynamic power in holding on. DYnamic power is a jump squat, bench throws, clapping pushups, etc. It is a longer process and you won't all of a sudden be stronger but I think aerobic sets of 10-15 with 45-90 second of rest at less intensity would ultimalty be more benicial strengh wise. It would cause less "pump" ultimatly due to better aerobic systems
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adklimber
Dec 5, 2006, 6:35 PM
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Well, I have decided to focus on Fluxus' training methods. I am trying to be conscious of my weaknesses in movement. One thing I noticed the other day is how I do not take advantage of momentum.
For example I crossed through to a left hand hold and stopped, gathered myself, then once I saw where i was going next I then pulled myself up (initiating most of my weight in movement with my hands). What I could of done is used my momentum gained from the last move and pull through to the next hold. This is not how all sequences go, however, I noticed that I stop and start a lot. This crushes the momentum and is very inefficient.
What are some other ways to practice movement?
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fluxus
Dec 5, 2006, 10:24 PM
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lena_chita
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Dec 6, 2006, 3:39 PM
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adklimber wrote: Tues. CIR 10 - 15 problems Wed. rest (active) Thur. VIR Fri. rest Sat. *Threshold bouldering and onsights Sun. Rock Rings (weighted at home- will this help or hurt?) Mon. rest (active) Threshold bouldering meaning working problems that are above my level 2-3 grades.
Fluxus, I have a question, too. Is it necessary to have the schedule with a weekly periodisation ( e.i. always doing CIR on Monday, or whatever) or is it better to vary from week to week-- e.i. do 4x4s twice a week one week, and then maybe not do it at all next week?
I have done the evaluation, and I am a bit confused by the results.
For example, for continuous-climbing, I can do 5.9 for 20 min, if it is on a vertical wall, but only 5.7 on an overhanging wall for 20 min without getting pumped.
I seem to be able to work through pump fairly well -- e.i. I can do a V1 4x4 on an overhanging wall (it takes me 4 and a half minutes to do 4 problems, and I take 3 min rest in between). But according to your book, if someone can do a 4x4 on V1, that means that the red-point level is somewhere around V4, and I have never to my knowledge red-pointed a V4. I have to add that bouldering is all inside-based, I have never bouldered outside on established problems with V ratings, so maybe the "V1s" that I'm doing 4x4 on are really V0... I have no way to tell really. Our gym doesn't rate individual problems, they are simply grouped into "easy"-- V0-V1 (And I'm doing the "hardest out of the easy routes" for 4x4) moderate (V2-V4, I have redpointed some problems out of this range, but by no means every single one, which is why I think I'm not at the V4 for highest redpoint), hard (V5-V7), and V8+
From the movement/prefered holds perspective, I think I am relatively good at crimps (small hands help) and anything that involves high-steps, heel-hooks, hand-foot matches, etc. If a roof has a heel-hook, i can climb that roof.
My weakness is sustained overhang, dynoing and slopers.
I am more interested in roped climbing that bouldering, Bouldering for me is just a tool to get better at roped climbing.
My goal is to get my red-point solidly to 5.11a-b by summer. My highest red-point outside so far was 5.10d (2 tries). I have one lonely 5.11a onsight, which is I think entirely a result of soft rating. An "honest" onsight level for me is 5.10b-- 2 routes. (the ratings are all from outside climbing.) I believe that several routes that I have red-pointed in the gym are in the 5.11 range, but again, I can't be sure b/c our gym is not too keen on ratings.
Training that I am working on right now:
Monday:
ARC traversing (20 min) with glue hands/silent feet.
2-3 easy routes, I pick one of the following: 1) slab with hands-free climbing and focusing on initiation from one leg or the other, or fro mthe hips, experimenting with big steps/small steps, etc. 2) easy overhang with various flagging or back-step exercises.
4x4 on V0/V1 as expalined above. I can only do one 4x4 sequence, and my arms are dead after it. I am stilltrying to tweak what routes to use, but I try to get all overhanging routes.
Coolldown - 2-3 routes, laps if I can manage it, or 1 route/rest/2ndroute/rest etc.
Tuesday-- rest
Wednesday:
ARC traversing 40 min. (I don't have a regular climbing partner for Wednesday, there is usually someone coming in later who would belay me, but this is why I do a longer traversing). Again, glue hands/silent feet, pivots& turns, flagging, and I try to add some stuff just experimenting with various moves.
2 hours to work on difficult for me routes-- redpointing new routes, or climbing routes that i recently red-pointed. One of the routes has 3 dynos in it. Most of the routes are overhanging with a lot of slopers.
2-3 laps on easy routes or noroutes at all to finish.
Thursday & Friday rest days
Saturday:
40 min ARC traversing as above. Again, no belayer available, though I can usually count on finding one later in the day. (last Saturday I added weights after 20 min b/c I didn't feel like I was working even to a slight warmth in my arms. I will probably make weights part of it now, unless you say no)
Bouldering-- 4-5 easy problems, then working on 2-3 problems for redpointing. Lots of rest in between, about 2 hours total.
Roped laps -- try to do 3 sets of 3-4 laps, 2 sets on overhanging wall, and one on vertical. It is usually doable, though last week I couldn't do even 2 laps for some reason.
Sunday-- power yoga.
Any suggestions for improving on the above schedule?
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ebonezercabbage
Dec 6, 2006, 5:25 PM
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brent_e wrote: adklimber wrote: For me atleast it is gym season, Dec. - Feb. This means it is time for training. What I am wondering is what you guys are doing and why? we're climbing ice!!! for me the summer is waiting season!!! 
I agree. I'm climbing mountains. summer is training/waiting/hiking season.
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rome2282
Dec 6, 2006, 6:50 PM
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minn8325 wrote: First thing to adress you never gain more muscle fiber. You always have the same amount from birth to death. The only thing that changes is the size of them. Hypertrophy does increase diameter but does not give you anymore. ultimatly decreaing range of motion and increasing water retention. Hope fully fluxus will corect me if I am wrong here about "climbing" strength but max power and hypertrophy does not make sense the burn you feel is from lactic acid build up there is no dynamic power in holding on. DYnamic power is a jump squat, bench throws, clapping pushups, etc. It is a longer process and you won't all of a sudden be stronger but I think aerobic sets of 10-15 with 45-90 second of rest at less intensity would ultimalty be more benicial strengh wise. It would cause less "pump" ultimatly due to better aerobic systems
As someone who is quickly learning the limitations of my "Dynamic Power" in my attempts at pushing my bouldering level, I can tell you that there is a lot more involved then just "Holding on". (Hence the climbing term Dyno) Hopefully someone with more time on their hands can elaborate further, back to work now ...
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fluxus
Dec 6, 2006, 9:16 PM
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minn8325 wrote: . . . corect me if I am wrong here about "climbing" strength but max power and hypertrophy does not make sense the burn you feel is from lactic acid build up there is no dynamic power in holding on.
Granted the burn we feel is from longer durations of anaerobic work, and development of what we climbers call local (read forearms) anaerobic endurance is important, but, that's not all there is to climbing. Climber's need it all, but the balance depends upon what type of climbing one does. The needs of a bouldering specialist are very different from the red point specialist, competition climber, or trad climber.
I would say that there is a tradition in climbing to place more emphasis than necessary on the development of power, but I think that happens because our sport always tends to make us feel "weak" and not knowing any better climbers respond by training for power so they will feel "strong".
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fluxus
Dec 6, 2006, 10:16 PM
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lena_chita
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Dec 7, 2006, 8:41 PM
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Fluxus, thank you for taking time to go over the details. I really appreciate your help.
fluxus wrote: Lets start with the basics, what are the goals you are training for and where are you in your training schedule? That is, how long until you can climb outdoors again. (i see you mention goals farther on, but how much time do you have before you can be back on rock?).
Late April at least for roped climbing. I may be able to go bouldering outside before then
fluxus wrote: Mix it up a bit. Since you climb on a variety of angles outside you should also ARC on a variety of angles. If the intensity of the ARC needs to change a bit depending upon the steepness of the wall thats o.k...
Right now I am doing most of the ARCing by traversing b/c of lack of the belayer. It is on interconnected walls that change from overhangs to slab to vertical. I have noticed yesterday that I was doing it very slowly b/c I started out with the goal of making deliberate hand/foot placements, and have been doing it 3xweek for several weeks now. But the side effect of that was that I was going so slow that I was actually resting on the slab and inside corners. I decided to speed things up as much as I could without sacrificing correct movement, and that made a huge difference in the intensity-- to the point that I couldn't do my usual 40 min without getting pumped, in fact i was getting pumped after 20 min or so (covering about the same distance as during slow traverse in half the time). I am going to work on getting this higher-intensity ARC up to 40 min again, and work on using smaller holds. But any change I get I will do roped ARCing, too.
fluxus wrote: You are a newer climber, so I would expect some uncertainity in performance level, the fact that your gym rates problems as they do, does not help the cause. How many V3s & V4s have you actually tried? If you are doing 4X4s on real V1s and you have bouldered a bunch of V2s than V3/4 will just take a little bit of work. It might just be a matter of not getting on the right problems..
Out of the V0-V1 "easy" category, most of the problems are onsights or redpoints in couple tries. I've done dozens of those over the past year. The problems that I have pciked for 4x4s so far have all been onsights.
In the V2-V4 "moderate" category, I have tried dozens of problems, too, over the past year, and have redpointed about a 3rd of them. I am assuming that the ones I have redpointed are the easier ones in this category, thus V2 and maybe couple V3s... But without ratings I'm just guessing. I do know that 2 years ago most of the easy problems were red-points, and some weren't even succesfull, and in the past year I have gotten to the point of onsighting most of the easy problems and at least having some chance at problems in the moderate category, but that's about it for tracking progress with indoor bouldering :) .
fluxus wrote: Considered December and January to be stamina / endurance building time. In this period the goals are: -To increase the amount of training / climbing you can handle in a day. and to improve your efficiency in terms of how well organized you are, making a plan of what routes to do, staying focused so that you can get those 10 - 15 pitches in, in a session. -To continue to develop movement skills and apply them to climbs and boulder problems. -To work on the lower rungs of an indoor route pyramid. During this phase you will do: ARCs, - traversing and on routes VIR & CIR both on routes The endurance goal would be to get your ARC level up to to the 5.9+ range (or higher if possible) assuming that you will be climbing on different wall angles. The stamina goal would be to get your CIR / VIR level to mid 5.10 or higher depending on how it goes. Weekly workout goals would be: 3 ARCS 2 VIR or CIR workouts on routes (throw in a "pyramid in a day" here and there) 1 - 2 red point session on routes that are on your pyramid. 3 movement learning & application sessions. These can be combined in any number of ways. I think that ARCs in conjunction with VIR/CIR is a great tool. So at the end of 7 weeks training you should have completed: 21 ARCs 14 VIR /CIR (with 4 of these being "pyramid in a day") 10 - 14 working / red point sessions (with several red points in the 10b or c range) 21 movement & application sessions. (emphasis on dynamics and slopers) make a route pyramid you can do in the gym with the bottom layer one letter above your current on-sight level. define your curent CIR / VIR levels. you MUST keep a training / climbing journal!!! Review every two weeks to see how you are doing and measure progress. Try this and keep us posted.
Thank you again!
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minn8325
Dec 8, 2006, 3:23 AM
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rome2282 wrote: As someone who is quickly learning the limitations of my "Dynamic Power" in my attempts at pushing my bouldering level, I can tell you that there is a lot more involved then just "Holding on". (Hence the climbing term Dyno) Hopefully someone with more time on their hands can elaborate further, back to work now ...
In all reality all the dynamics a dyno come out of your legs not your hands, your arms neary seve as axle to give you direction wether you are goin all off and leaping or just swinging your body to get that hold just a little out of reach. if you can squat more than your body weight you should be ok and achieve positive energy.
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