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wanderlustmd
Dec 6, 2006, 6:19 PM
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Hey everyone,
I'm getting back into climbing after a year long "vacation" and recently relocated on top of that. They city where I now live has a great indoor gym, but I've noticed something odd about the TR setup. When you reach the anchor point, the rop is threaded around itself several times, creating an ungodly amount of unnecessary rope friction. I menationed this to my partner after (carefully) descending and she said "oh yeah, they do that to help the belayers. 
Anyway, I'd like to think I've been climing long enough to know a bad setup when I see one, and have never seen this in another gym. The gym appears to be reputable; they have a guide service, clinics, good staff, standard safety tests before you can climb, etc. None of this was at the old gym back home, but they had a regular (safe) rope setup!
Anyone seen this before? I haven't spoken to the staff yet, as I don't want to be an ass, but am thinking about asking someone what the deal is. All the gear seems to be well maintained, but after what happened in Yosemite recently you can't be too careful...
Thanks
Matt
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mwunder424
Dec 6, 2006, 6:25 PM
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sounds like you have been to Earth Treks... they have been doing that for years now... no incidents yet...
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wzrdgandalf
Dec 6, 2006, 6:27 PM
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Is the rope wrapped around a large cylinder like contraption? They seem to have those at a lot of gyms. With the large cylinder more friction is created and then children can feasibly belay larger climbers (why you would want that i dont know). I dont see anything unsafe about it though, unless you are saying that they are wrapping the rope through a second time on the anchors at the top. With the rope going over such a large surface area there shouldnt be any risk of cutting the rope and in a gym I dont think you could lower fast enough and for a length long enough to hurt the ropes significantly.
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snoangel
Dec 6, 2006, 6:42 PM
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I've seen it done with an extra wrap, but not with multiple wraps. That seems excessive to me as the single extra wrap slows things down considerably and is quite annoying, IMO.
And yeah, it's a safety thing. My old gym used to have TRs set-up without the extra wrap and the rope ran smoothly. They recently changed to the extra wrap based on talks with other gym owners & liability issues.
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j_ung
Dec 6, 2006, 6:45 PM
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I've seen that set up with one complete wrap in several gyms, but never with multiple wraps. Are you sure it was more than one wrap? Seems like a lot of disproportionately light climbers would spend the rest of their naturals lives near the ET ceiling. 
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wanderlustmd
Dec 6, 2006, 6:59 PM
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Like I said, I'd have to see it again, but it was wrapped at least twice, probably three times. I guess I can see why they are doing it (especially if a five year old wants to belay dad), but the place also has floor anchors so...
Just seems like unnecesary stress in the system, thats all.
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ChipS
Dec 6, 2006, 7:05 PM
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As a builder, inspector, and installer of climbing walls I can tell you the friction wrap on a belay spool or belay bar is a common practice. Tpically the rope will be wrapped only one full wrap. However you suggest there are several wraps at the gym you are climbing. My concern if there are several wraps, is that the rope can cross itself creating friction from rope on rope contact. That contact will create heat and could very quickly create rope failure. Most belay spools have "prongs" to channel the rope from crossing itself -- like this picture illustrates:
http://www.signatureresearch.com/belayspool.jpg
In regards to the comment on Earth Treks -- do you know for a FACT that there have been no injuries? My understanding is that ET removed their auto belay systems because participants were getting hurt. Particpants were clipping into the standard belay set ups because they thought they were auto systems and then falling with no belayer. That is what I heard but I have did not verify the facts.
Wanderlustmd I would look into the belay set up carefully and maybe even ask an unassuming question to the gyms management re: their reason for that set up.
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notch
Dec 6, 2006, 9:20 PM
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ChipS wrote: My concern if there are several wraps, is that the rope can cross itself creating friction from rope on rope contact. That contact will create heat and could very quickly create rope failure.
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wanderlustmd
Dec 7, 2006, 1:12 PM
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Thanks for the insight Chip. Good point Notch, hadn't considered that, but I tend to follow the rule that nylon on nylon (or nylon on rock, etc.) is bad in any case. I think you may be right, but I don't really want to find out
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joshy8200
Dec 7, 2006, 2:39 PM
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As said heat building up and melting through the rope is not a problem...at all. At best (or worst) you could lower someone really fast (although you say this is not even possible) and maybe put a slight glaze on the rope.
In any case the wraps around the bar at gyms are not uncommon at all. UNC-Chapel Hill has two climbing gyms with the anchors setup this way. Small children belaying at these gyms is not even an issue. The beauty of having the rope wrapped around the anchor is the extra friction. Neither of these gyms have floor anchors available and because of the wrap around the bar even if there's a huge weight difference between a cute college coed or beer bellied frat douche there's no problem for the light belayer.
I think this is a nice setup. Sometimes the rope will run over itself a bit but not enough to be of any consequence. It can make it difficult to lower a very light partner.
If the gym does have the rope wrapped multiple times, I would talk to them and make sure this is not in error. Anything more than a single wrap would seem excessive and problematic.
(This post was edited by joshy8200 on Dec 7, 2006, 3:36 PM)
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jgloporto
Dec 7, 2006, 4:10 PM
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notch wrote: ChipS wrote: My concern if there are several wraps, is that the rope can cross itself creating friction from rope on rope contact. That contact will create heat and could very quickly create rope failure. Actually, I don't think it can. Given that the rope is constantly in motion, not enough heat can build up in the tiny amount of time to have a negative consequence. Nylon on nylon heat build up is only a concern when one of the sections is static, such as when a rope is pulled through a sling. The section of rope in contact with the sling is constantly changing, so the heat generated is quickly dispersed, whereas the sling is constantly having friction in one location, and that is where the melting occurs. I challenge you to melt an overlapped climbing rope lowering off at any speed.
Might cause the sheathing to wear a bit faster but that's the gym's problem in that they'll have to replace rope more frequently. Otherwise, I agree that it couldn't cause enough friction to damage the rope in a way that's dangerous. Just seems excessive to me. With single wrap around the cylinder, I have never once felt the weight of my partner on a fall and he's about 200 lbs.
Joe
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musicman1586
Dec 7, 2006, 5:05 PM
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I'll vouch for the system as well. I work in a gym where we have both auto-belays and TR-set ups and we set up the TRs with one extra loop. Like others have said, it gives enough friction to help smaller belayers belay people, and also, even though this has never happened, it would slow down how fast someone would fall if their belayer dropped them (although if you could drop someone using a cinch then there's serious question to your mental capacities). I did have one incident just recently where one of the loops flipped over the top of the other and locked up, but I also know how that was caused, and besides that, never had a problem with it, the ropes stay in good shape et. al.
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