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playouts1de
Dec 7, 2006, 5:56 AM
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I want the "why" on when to place a locking biner. Ive climbed a FAIR amount, mostly sport, and have "memorised" the times and places I use my locking biners. Im sure someone at some point gave me a definative rule of thumb, HOWEVER I was climbing with a guy last week who didnt use lockers much at all. It took me a few days to calm down after topping out on a full pitch route as a second only to find my belay secured by a BD quickdraw....one of em....and thats it. I already know that THAT was DUMB, and I wont climb with the guy outside of the gym ever again ( thats a rant for a different forum)
I guess I want to refound my knowledge in this area a little.
Thanks
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overlord
Dec 7, 2006, 6:37 AM
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well, theyre used in situation when the rope or something might become unclipped and its the only pieve between you and doom or when you ablsolutely cant risk an open-gate load.
with draws and other pro, you usually have more than one piece between you and disaster so one open-gate catch wouldnt be so dangerous, and you might even survive the gear unclipping.
not so with the anchors and belay device/belay loop link. one of those fails and you (or your partner) is proper f*cked.
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playouts1de
Dec 7, 2006, 7:34 AM
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Yeah, I just read the same thing in Freedom of the Hills. Ive always cow tailed in to bolts (girth hitched runner w/ locking biner) but this guy told me I was taking too long and using inappropriate gear (two equalized slings on metolius hangars/bolts with locking biners) for setting up TR. He only used his quick draws to set them up. He was a bit older than me and I thought he had more climbing experience. Sometimes it sucks to have been right having been told you were wrong and accepted it.
Thanks for the reply.
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bill413
Dec 7, 2006, 3:04 PM
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I admit to being old school, but, I was taught that two non-lockers (gates oppossed) were as good (or even better) than one locker. So, I'm perfectly willing to climb on anchors that don't have lockers in them, provided that the critical biners are redundantly arranged. However, I am more comfortable with a locker in the system - but, again, that one should be backed up with another biner (locker or not, doesn't matter too much). I've had the experience of topping out on a TR & discovering that the single locker had not only come unlocked, but pressure of the rock on the screwgate was holding it open.
As far as during the climb - critical pieces where there is a chance of it becoming unclipped.
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overlord
Dec 7, 2006, 6:24 PM
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bill413 wrote: I admit to being old school, but, I was taught that two non-lockers (gates oppossed) were as good (or even better) than one locker. So, I'm perfectly willing to climb on anchors that don't have lockers in them, provided that the critical biners are redundantly arranged.
that is true... but the guy in question only used one draw (i regullary use two opposed draws for anchors when im RPing the route). while i would be ok to lower off such a setup and leaving the draws in place (meaning theres no single point of failure), if i were to clean or TR, i would feel very uncomfrotable.
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el_jerko
Dec 7, 2006, 10:44 PM
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I am with Bill413 on this, I prefer 2 biners on anchor connections but will settle for a single locker. Other places I use them are for rapell back ups and situations where a single biner failure would be catastrophic.
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docburner
Dec 10, 2006, 11:57 PM
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I am fine with 2 quickdraws for a TR setup, and would be pissed if there is just one. I usually have 2 slings with lockers, and when I set up anchors I use them. I prefer doing it this way because of the way I clean it is easier if there are lockers up there already. But as long as it is decently equalized 2 draws is good enough for me.
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tallmark515
Dec 29, 2006, 12:57 AM
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My opinion is that it doesn't matter how experienced the person you're climbing with is, you always have a right to be safe. I don't care if it's your first day at the crags you have the right to question every part of the anchor. Most of the deaths and injuries that occur in climbing are a result of carelessness (often carelessness on the part of seasoned climbers, i.e. Todd Skinner). If you want to use lockers then use them, it really shouldn't take much longer than using a non-locker, if you want to use 3 draws then use them, if Mr. Experienced gets pissed then just be honest with him. It's your life dude.
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ihategrigris
Dec 29, 2006, 8:29 AM
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My rules of thumb:
Locker MUST be used Belay device/rap device
Lockers should also be used:
- Cow tail clip.
- Anchor clip in for EVERY person clipped the anchor.
- Top rope power point.
Any of the 'should' lockers I'll comfortably replace with two opposed non-locking biners.
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tallmark515
Dec 29, 2006, 11:19 PM
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i second that
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west_coast_climber
Dec 31, 2006, 6:04 PM
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tallmark515 wrote: My opinion is that it doesn't matter how experienced the person you're climbing with is, you always have a right to be safe.
so, so true. if it feels sketchy to you, don't let some blow-hole pressure you into taking risks you're not willing to take. besides, how much extra time does it really add to just use a second quickdraw in your anchor!!!
(This post was edited by west_coast_climber on Dec 31, 2006, 6:04 PM)
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alexmac
Dec 31, 2006, 8:10 PM
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playouts1de wrote: I want the "why" on when to place a locking biner. Ive climbed a FAIR amount, mostly sport, and have "memorised" the times and places I use my locking biners. Im sure someone at some point gave me a definative rule of thumb, HOWEVER I was climbing with a guy last week who didnt use lockers much at all. It took me a few days to calm down after topping out on a full pitch route as a second only to find my belay secured by a BD quickdraw....one of em....and thats it. I already know that THAT was DUMB, and I wont climb with the guy outside of the gym ever again ( thats a rant for a different forum) I guess I want to refound my knowledge in this area a little. Thanks
Wow, you have every right to be mad, that would have ended the day for me right there.
Good choice not to climb with the person again.
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curt
Dec 31, 2006, 9:13 PM
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west_coast_climber wrote: tallmark515 wrote: My opinion is that it doesn't matter how experienced the person you're climbing with is, you always have a right to be safe. so, so true. if it feels sketchy to you, don't let some blow-hole pressure you into taking risks you're not willing to take...
Indeed. If someone who claims to be an "experienced" climber does something that you consider to be unsafe--ask them to explain why they believe what they are doing is safe. If they can't give you an answer you are comfortable with--don't go along with them.
Curt
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kman
Jan 3, 2007, 11:52 PM
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playouts1de wrote: I want the "why" on when to place a locking biner. Ive climbed a FAIR amount, mostly sport, and have "memorised" the times and places I use my locking biners. Im sure someone at some point gave me a definative rule of thumb, HOWEVER I was climbing with a guy last week who didnt use lockers much at all. It took me a few days to calm down after topping out on a full pitch route as a second only to find my belay secured by a BD quickdraw....one of em....and thats it. I already know that THAT was DUMB, and I wont climb with the guy outside of the gym ever again ( thats a rant for a different forum) I guess I want to refound my knowledge in this area a little. Thanks
You say that when you topped out as a second you were on a FULL pitch route. This makes me believe that the person belaying you was still at the anchor and bringing you up as opposed to him being on the ground and top roping you?? Is this accurate? Can you describe the exact set up please.
Personally I would not have a problem when seconding a leader and getting to the anchor, with the leader at anchor, to discover that I was on a belay redirect through one draw / bolt (if bomber). In this situation the leader is right at the anchor to keep an eye on what's up.
However, if I topped out on a top rope and found that I was being tr'ed on a single quickdraw I would be pretty pissed.
Top roping on 2 draws is very common and really is no big deal in most situations.
The bottom line is if you are uncomfortable ask questions as to why the system is set up the way it is. If you do not get an aswer that satisfies you 100% then voice your concerns and request that the system is improved upon. If the person is not willing to make an improvement ( to a reasonable extent assuming you are not a paranoid noob) then that person is probably not some one you should be climbing with anyway.
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Davey
Feb 2, 2007, 7:36 AM
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I do allot of Aid climbing and search & rescue rigging. For search & rescue Locking is the standard. But with other climbing I have found that it is best to use a Locker when you are placing a biner were it will hold weight constantly or be there longer than a quick placing.
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cracklover
Feb 2, 2007, 10:48 PM
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kman wrote: playouts1de wrote: I want the "why" on when to place a locking biner. Ive climbed a FAIR amount, mostly sport, and have "memorised" the times and places I use my locking biners. Im sure someone at some point gave me a definative rule of thumb, HOWEVER I was climbing with a guy last week who didnt use lockers much at all. It took me a few days to calm down after topping out on a full pitch route as a second only to find my belay secured by a BD quickdraw....one of em....and thats it. I already know that THAT was DUMB, and I wont climb with the guy outside of the gym ever again ( thats a rant for a different forum) I guess I want to refound my knowledge in this area a little. Thanks You say that when you topped out as a second you were on a FULL pitch route. This makes me believe that the person belaying you was still at the anchor and bringing you up as opposed to him being on the ground and top roping you?? Is this accurate? Can you describe the exact set up please. Personally I would not have a problem when seconding a leader and getting to the anchor, with the leader at anchor, to discover that I was on a belay redirect through one draw / bolt (if bomber). In this situation the leader is right at the anchor to keep an eye on what's up.
Excellent point. If you were just being redirected through a single biner - that's not optimal, but I'd consider it a potentially reasonable solution if tradeoffs were necessary. Especially if the redirect biner was close to the leader's harness/belay device.
GO
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caughtinside
Feb 2, 2007, 11:08 PM
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I generally don't use too many lockers. Often the only locker on my anchor will be one that I am cloved into. I generally back this up, on non lockers.
Personally, it doesn't have to be a locker for me if it is redundant.
And I will redirect the belay of a single quickdraw on a bomber bolt/piece, as well as tr on two qd's on bolts.
If it's a climb that has topped out, and I'm bringing up a second, I'll belay from a stance, with some sort of backup that isn't a standard 3 piece anchor. I've caught multiple falls from stances or seated positions without budging.
lots of good advice in this thread.
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boymeetsrock
Feb 3, 2007, 12:05 AM
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Couple of points.
1) lets be clear that, with kman's example, if one is being belayed through a redirect at the top of a pitch, the belayer or belay, should be attached to AT LEAST a qd from each of the two bolts.
2) I'm surprised no one has commented on "Cow Tailing" the anchor. (I hope that by cow tail, you mean girth hitch, cause other wise I'm an idiot) Esp with all the discussion lately about slings shredding themselves. I recommend you use biners to attach webbing to EVERYTHING, when ever possible. (ok i just thought that I have my daisy girthed to my harnes, have to re-think that)
Now back to the OP's question. I'm young, but I'm with the old schoolers. Another good example of a when, though, would be on a long runner where there is a decent possibility of the gate being opened.
"WHY" Lockers are designed to keep the biner from opening, and should be used any time the biner could open, or on any CRITICAL placement (i.e anchor, last piece before the big runnout)
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curtis_g
Feb 3, 2007, 12:18 AM
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west_coast_climber wrote: tallmark515 wrote: My opinion is that it doesn't matter how experienced the person you're climbing with is, you always have a right to be safe. so, so true. if it feels sketchy to you, don't let some blow-hole pressure you into taking risks you're not willing to take. besides, how much extra time does it really add to just use a second quickdraw in your anchor!!!
you'd be suprised...moderate multi pitch, maybe a full half minute, now multiply that by 4 or 5 pitches...
man now you're talkin 2 to 3 minutes and THAT my friend, could easily be the difference between making it back home to shower and watch Grey's Anatomy at 9pm.
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kevinheiss
Feb 12, 2007, 2:46 AM
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If I am climbing at my local I will use quickdraws since the climb is maybe 25m high. But if I am doing multi-pitch, using locking-biners doesn't take that much longer and it adds a little more afety. But your right, two opposite biner are just as good but I wouldn't say better.
P.S. locking biners are usually bigger which helps when you are tighing-in
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styndall
Feb 12, 2007, 3:05 AM
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boymeetsrock wrote: Couple of points. 1) lets be clear that, with kman's example, if one is being belayed through a redirect at the top of a pitch, the belayer or belay, should be attached to AT LEAST a qd from each of the two bolts.
2) I'm surprised no one has commented on "Cow Tailing" the anchor. (I hope that by cow tail, you mean girth hitch, cause other wise I'm an idiot) Esp with all the discussion lately about slings shredding themselves. I recommend you use biners to attach webbing to EVERYTHING, when ever possible. (ok i just thought that I have my daisy girthed to my harnes, have to re-think that)
Now back to the OP's question. I'm young, but I'm with the old schoolers. Another good example of a when, though, would be on a long runner where there is a decent possibility of the gate being opened. "WHY" Lockers are designed to keep the biner from opening, and should be used any time the biner could open, or on any CRITICAL placement (i.e anchor, last piece before the big runnout)
I'm pretty sure 'cow-tailing' just refers to running a short length of your tie-in to the anchor with a clove hitch.
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coastal_climber
Feb 12, 2007, 3:24 AM
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You lead on one non-locker, so I don't see it as that big of a deal. I try to always use 2 of everything when possible. Doesn't 1 biner, and his belay loop count as two peices of pro?
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Baja_Driven
Feb 20, 2007, 12:37 PM
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Coastal - I think the issue here is that the belayer was anchored with a single draw.
You don't technically lead on a single piece. You lead on a failure chain of pieces. If your top piece goes, you fall back on the next. However, if you're the second, and your belay is anchored with only a single draw, what happens when his anchor blows? Suddenly, he's falling in a fast rap with a non-static anchor (I.E. You). Even if he does manage to keep his wits and stop his own descent, you're both in a very bad place afterwards.
And, to keep with the topic, I'll use opposed non-lockers any day for a TR setup, but if I have lockers on me, they get used first. I still use 2, however, or one locker and one non-lock.
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skurdeycat
Feb 20, 2007, 5:22 PM
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overlord wrote: that is true... but the guy in question only used one draw (i regullary use two opposed draws for anchors when im RPing the route). while i would be ok to lower off such a setup and leaving the draws in place (meaning theres no single point of failure), if i were to clean or TR, i would feel very uncomfrotable.
After a bad experience cleaning for someone I didn't know, I started to reclip the last draw before the anchor back into the descending rope. Now I do it whenever I can, even if I completely trust the leader. Maybe I'm too paranoid, but I feel that it could help if I made some mistake cleaning the anchor too.
Anybody else ever do this?
Skurdey
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