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climberslacker
Dec 8, 2006, 4:39 AM
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K so i was wondering how many of what type of biners i need ( locking vs. non lockiing) for a typicl top-rope setup?
Im gonna take a class on anchor setups and would like to immediatl go home and practice making my anchoprs.
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tattooed_climber
Dec 8, 2006, 5:05 AM
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either or......but when it comes to anchors, use lockers before non lockers (trad and alpine philosophy here)
technically for TR, youre less likely to take a 'fall' vs taking a whipper like with trad, so the likely hood of the rope/anchor backclipping a biner is far less...still, and especially at the master point (the biner that connects the rope the anchor) always use 2 locking and opposed biners
its youre "practicing" at home around the couch or something, any biner will do....still, if youre just starting out, buying 6 lockers first thing off the bat never hurts
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greenketch
Dec 8, 2006, 5:54 PM
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If your going to take a class start with about four and four. One would be hard pressed to create an equalized three piece anchor with less than eight biners. A few more would be nice and you can always use them later.
As to actually useing them use a locker anywhere that a failure would have severe consequences. if failure is not that bad a non-locker is fine. After the class go make up some anchors and then carefully analyze for what happens. You will probably decide you need to have something differant.
If you have any aspirations to leading you will need to learn the art of createing safe anchors out of whatever is left on your rack. By then you will have lots of biners to play with.
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wanlessrm
Dec 8, 2006, 6:00 PM
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Are you kidding? Eight biners? WTF
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dbrayack
Dec 8, 2006, 6:09 PM
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I took a tope roping class a while ago.
We were taught to use webbing/static rope around trees and to use:
TWO NON-LOCKING OVAL biners opposite and oposed.
Be sure they are symmetrical so you do not get offset (does this make sense?) which makes the rope run weird.
A locker thrown in with a non locker isn't a bad idea, but the theory of two lockers is that the screw locks rub and can end up unlocking themselves.
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drfelatio
Dec 8, 2006, 7:28 PM
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tattooed_climber wrote: ...at the master point (the biner that connects the rope the anchor) always use 2 locking and opposed biners
Noob question: Why TWO lockers? I assume we're worried about loading the gate and unclipping (hence the need for TWO opposite and opposed NON-lockers), but isn't that what using a locker is supposed to prevent? I'm not saying its wrong, necessarily. I mean, if you have them, by all means use them, but it just seems superfluous to me.
wanlessrm wrote: Are you kidding? Eight biners? WTF
No doubt! You need at least four (At the most, five, keep reading...). One locker for each anchor and one locker (or maybe 2...see first quote) or two non-lockers for the power point.
If all you had were non-lockers, then, yeah, eight would be nice.
(This post was edited by drfelatio on Dec 8, 2006, 7:29 PM)
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dbrayack
Dec 8, 2006, 7:31 PM
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why lockers for the anchor point? Why not just girth hitch or tie around the tree? My top rope anchors only need two biners (non lockers)
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greenketch
Dec 8, 2006, 8:07 PM
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wanlessrm wrote: Are you kidding? Eight biners? WTF
We are talking about a class here. If I were setting up a textbook equalette off three pieces, it could be done with four standard and one locker. (one at each piece of pro and two at the master point). It is true that two standard could be used at the master point as well. But again I must state that we are discussing a class. If I was at a class and they only covered perfect placements and locations where there are bomber trees positioned just so (in which case webbing and two biners is all you need) I would ask for a refund. In my book a class is to become acquainted with some of the "what if's" and "how to's". In that setting having eight biners to use and become profficient with is not terribly unreasonable.
I think I will stand by my recomend for this one. Now if you are truelly poor and can't afford it, less is fine, but maybe one needs to reexamine there choice of recreation.
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wanlessrm
Dec 8, 2006, 8:27 PM
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This is a new person were talking about and they will only be building anchors in a prime location. On a multipitch route 16 beaners at the belays. Who would carry that? If I was your climbing partner I would think your nuts with 8.
With more experience I think you'll soon change you mind!
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percious
Dec 8, 2006, 8:28 PM
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Some suggestions are good here. I assume you will not be building artificial anchors, because otherwise you would be asking about stoppers and cams... That being said, you will need at least two lockers for the powerpoint. A couple of extra lockers are good for friction-wrapping trees, and if you use a cordolette or a sling on a tree.
I would not recommend girth-hitching a tree because it is the least-strong way to set up a sling, instead simply loop the tree and attach your static line to the sling at the two loops with two opposite and apposed carabiners. (hard to describe). While it is not redundant, it has the most strength, and you will need more than one anchor point anyway which will give you your redundancy.
Make sure you get two carabiners for your power point that have large gate openings like BD pearabiners or OP Jakes. Some people I know use steelies for the power point because they will last a lot longer. They tend to take a significant amount of abuse while hanging over the edge of the cliff, especially on routes that are hang-doggers. Also consider getting key-lock carabiners because they tend to hang up less when you are setting/breaking down stuff. Almost all of my locking carabiners are key-lock at this point.
After all that how many do you need for one setup?
2 - (large) Power Point lockers
2-4 - Other lockers
1 - carabiner for belay device
1 - carabiner for autoblock
Also consider picking up an extra single length sling to extend your belay device on rappel. If you don't know what an autoblock is then ask your instructor.
Have a great class!
-percious
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dbrayack
Dec 8, 2006, 8:37 PM
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I'd just like to note that everything here so far is sound, we're just bickering about efficiency etc.
Really, its all pretty straight forward. I try to be a minimalist (least amount of links in the system)
While others prefer to ensure maximum strength and least chance of failure (not girth hitching because of strength loss, locking biners etc)
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drfelatio
Dec 8, 2006, 8:54 PM
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dbrayack wrote: why lockers for the anchor point? Why not just girth hitch or tie around the tree? My top rope anchors only need two biners (non lockers)
Uhm...cause there aren't always trees at the anchor?
greenketch wrote: We are talking about a class here. If I were setting up a textbook equalette off three pieces, it could be done with four standard and one locker. (one at each piece of pro and two at the master point).
We must be reading different textbooks. Mine tells me a bomber, 3-piece anchor includes three lockers -- one at each piece of pro -- and two non-lockers for the master point (although I believe one locker could be used instead...see previous post). Where are you putting your locker? At the master point? If so, I just don't understand why you would mix a locker with a non-locker. In that situation, I would think that the non-locker would be superfluous.
greenketch wrote: It is true that two standard could be used at the master point as well. But again I must state that we are discussing a class. If I was at a class and they only covered perfect placements and locations where there are bomber trees positioned just so (in which case webbing and two biners is all you need) I would ask for a refund. In my book a class is to become acquainted with some of the "what if's" and "how to's".
Agreed.
greenketch wrote: In that setting having eight biners to use and become profficient with is not terribly unreasonable.
Not at all...if that was all you had. But I think the greater lesson here is that if you don't have a locking biner, then two non-lockers whose gates are opposite and opposed can be used instead. The point I'm trying to make is why use eight non-lockers when you can use four lockers?
greenketch wrote: I think I will stand by my recomend for this one. Now if you are truelly poor and can't afford it, less is fine, but maybe one needs to reexamine there choice of recreation.
Fair enough, but while you fiddle with your eight non-lockers, I'm gonna carry half that number (and less weight too) in lockers!
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drfelatio
Dec 8, 2006, 9:00 PM
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percious wrote: After all that how many do you need for one setup? 2 - (large) Power Point lockers 2-4 - Other lockers 1 - carabiner for belay device 1 - carabiner for autoblock
Clarification: 1 - LOCKER for belay device
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coastal_climber
Dec 8, 2006, 9:06 PM
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2 lockers, 2 non lockers, 2 pieces of webbing. Length of webbing pending on distance from bolts to endge of climb.
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devils_advocate
Dec 8, 2006, 10:13 PM
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what's a locker?
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wanlessrm
Dec 8, 2006, 10:28 PM
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Its something you keep your clothes in at the gym!
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percious
Dec 8, 2006, 10:32 PM
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yes,
locker for belay device, and locker for auto-block. Thanks for the clarification.
-percious
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tradrenn
Dec 9, 2006, 1:53 AM
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6 Locking biners max.
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pjdf
Dec 9, 2006, 7:41 AM
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percious wrote: I would not recommend girth-hitching a tree because it is the least-strong way to set up a sling, instead simply loop the tree and attach your static line to the sling at the two loops with two opposite and apposed carabiners. (hard to describe). While it is not redundant, it has the most strength, and you will need more than one anchor point anyway which will give you your redundancy.
While I understand your concern about girth hitches, it is important to note that if you don't have enough sling to extend significantly away from the tree, you may end up with a tri-axial loading of the carabiners, which is also a big problem.
Also, I'd like to second dbrayack's comment about using two lockers together for a power point. I have seen a rope unlock a single locker, and two together will unlock each other if opposite but not opposed (or opposed but not opposite--I'm not certain which term refers to which degree of freedom).
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jumpingrock
Dec 10, 2006, 5:38 AM
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I use however many lockers I have when I get to the lockers. This depends on how many I remembered to pack/carried up the climb. Learn to improvise and when a non-locker is "good-enough".
The only thing I like to do if I know that I am going to be setting up TR's is bring along one of the DMM auto-locking biners for the power point. I like the knowledge that once that clicks in place it will never open unless I will it to.
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percious
Dec 11, 2006, 2:19 PM
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I am guessing you are speaking about the DMM "locksafe" carabiners. They are a two-function carabiner which should reduce the likelihood of the carabiner opening inadvertently. I would not use a single-function auto-locking carabiner at the power point because the gate may be opened inadvertently. Personally, I think Petzls Ball-lock carabiners are better for a power point carabiner, but to be truthful, I usually use simple lockers.
-percious
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hex
Dec 11, 2006, 2:36 PM
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People often add a second karabiner to the powerpoint not for strength but to reduce the curve the rope has to run around and thus reduce the friction making the rope easier to belay with.... So could have 1 locker + 1 non locker, 2 lockers or 2 non lockers... always opposite and oppose the krabs and try and use ones that are similar size and shape.
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drfelatio
Dec 15, 2006, 1:24 AM
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I've heard a lot of good arguments for using two biners -- lockers or non-lockers -- for the powerpoint. This was the information that I was wanting to hear so thank you!
But back to the OP's original question: How many and what type biners are needed for a typical top-rope setup?
As dbrayack pointed out, if there are plenty of stout trees/boulders that you can throw a sling around you will need at least two (2) non-lockers (for the powerpoint).
If you need to clip your anchor into something, say, bolt hangers, then you will need at least five (5) biners:
** Three lockers, one for each anchor point
** Two opposite and opposed lockers or non-lockers or a combination of the two for the powerpoint
Having more than these minimum amounts certainly doesn't hurt, but, except in the case of substituting two non-lockers for one locker, they probably aren't necessary.
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devils_advocate
Dec 15, 2006, 5:15 PM
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drfelatio wrote: But back to the OP's original question: How many and what type biners are needed for a typical top-rope setup?
6... no wait, 4... crap, no 8. Yeah that’s it, 8. 7?
I find it amazing how often this question comes up. I find it hard to believe that anyone with enough understanding of what needs to go into a solid anchor actually needs to ask this question. If you have what it takes, and it really doesn’t take much, you should be able to visualize a redundant, equalized TR anchor in your head. You should be able to visualize different scenarios that might require more or less gear.
If you need to ask this question, please don’t build anchors without assistance.
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