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playouts1de
Dec 10, 2006, 8:55 AM
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So....I remember hearing from a BD rep once that the retaining cable on the back of an ATC could hold an unreal amount of force, measureable in the kn range. Im not sure I am remembering this right, or for that matter, why one would want to use an ATC as a piece of pro, but is it possable? Anyone else hear those stats before?
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pro_alien
Dec 10, 2006, 9:35 AM
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Don't even think of using the retaining cable - not designed for strength.
If I were so desparate to use the ATC as a nut, I would put a sling through the slots.
Pascal
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bill413
Dec 10, 2006, 3:00 PM
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I'm with Pascal on this - the cable weakens thru being flexed, so while it might start off unreasonably strong....the one on my old ATC eventually broke off. (After several years of use).
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moose_droppings
Dec 10, 2006, 4:44 PM
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pro_alien wrote: If I were so desparate to use the ATC as a nut, I would put a sling through the slots. Pascal
Don't even think of using it this way either
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pro_alien
Dec 10, 2006, 5:01 PM
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The key word is desperate...
Pascal
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kydd76
Dec 10, 2006, 5:22 PM
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pro_alien wrote: The key word is desperate... Pascal
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mattyp
Dec 10, 2006, 5:45 PM
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Maybe, a big maybe, as a sketchy backup piece for a life or death situation rap if you had no choice and no gear to bail on. Maybe...and even then i'd take a slung chock stone or chickenhead too, maybe.
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cam
Dec 10, 2006, 7:12 PM
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My experience with Rep's is that they'll tell you pretty much anything that sounds good. I'm not calling them liars, I'm just saying the're salespeople first and foremost.
My company produces madical instruments and our Rep's can recite the spec sheet backwards and forwards in their sleep. They know the product from a sales point of view, not a design point of view. Ask them a tecnical question that's not covered in the sales literature and you will stump them everytime. Same goes for our Marketing team. I'm not trying to shit on them, just illustrating my point. A Rep will know what a product does and how well it does it. Not neccessarily how it does it, why it does it or for that matter, what it doesn't do.
If you were to find a BD Engineer and tell them what the Rep told you, I'm pretty sure they would grasp you by the shoulders, and proclaim "Good god, man. Don't do it! That's not what its designed for!".
I'm sure the cable is good and strong, but the cable-to-ATC connection? Doubt it.
Just remember that if the product literature doesn't include using the ATC as pro...there's a good reason...It's not designed for it. If it were, that would be a feature that sets it appart from all the other belay devices out there and would surely be advertised as such.
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playouts1de
Dec 10, 2006, 9:18 PM
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Ok, after a lot or research I've found that it is the head of the ATC that can sustain a load. 24 kn worth of load. Thats probably what I remember from the clinic (over a year ago). I agree with previous posters about slinging it, esp considering the abuse that the wire takes. Still after much thought, I cant think of a single situation that I would WANT to use my BD as pro. I guess its good to know that if you slung the piece you would end up with a 22kn chock (if youre using a spectra sling). I just pray that I never end up in a situation in which I have to start thinking about sacrificing my BD.
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jimdavis
Dec 10, 2006, 9:37 PM
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and I thought placing passive camalots was stupid....
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fancyclaps
Dec 10, 2006, 10:00 PM
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It is my understanding that the BD rep said the wire could hold an unreal amount of force. NOT to try to use it as a piece of pro, that is what the OP was curious about.
But I am curious as to why you think someone should be fired from their company for touting the virtues of their products...?
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sky7high
Dec 10, 2006, 10:19 PM
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Pal, I actually read the instruction manual for the ATC, it specifies it should NOT be used as pro, so I think it wouldn't be that smart. Anyway, if you're that desperate, use a knotted sling.
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moose_droppings
Dec 10, 2006, 10:46 PM
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playouts1de wrote: Ok, after a lot or research I've found that it is the head of the ATC that can sustain a load. 24 kn worth of load. Thats probably what I remember from the clinic (over a year ago). I agree with previous posters about slinging it, esp considering the abuse that the wire takes. Still after much thought, I cant think of a single situation that I would WANT to use my BD as pro. I guess its good to know that if you slung the piece you would end up with a 22kn chock (if youre using a spectra sling). I just pray that I never end up in a situation in which I have to start thinking about sacrificing my BD.
Where does it say it can take 24kn of force to the sides of it as used as pro?
I could probably step on it and crush the sides in.
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alexmac
Dec 10, 2006, 10:48 PM
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playouts1de wrote: Ok, after a lot or research I've found that it is the head of the ATC that can sustain a load. 24 kn worth of load. Thats probably what I remember from the clinic (over a year ago). I agree with previous posters about slinging it, esp considering the abuse that the wire takes. Still after much thought, I cant think of a single situation that I would WANT to use my BD as pro. I guess its good to know that if you slung the piece you would end up with a 22kn chock (if youre using a spectra sling). I just pray that I never end up in a situation in which I have to start thinking about sacrificing my BD.
Okay, your not making any sense at all. Please stick to indoor sport climbing.
Climb, keep an inventory of your rack, get to a point where enough to build a belay station; STOP. Do so.
Run out, down climb or get lowered and clean some pieces out; set up a belay station.
No belay station, bailout.
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playouts1de
Dec 11, 2006, 5:54 AM
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If I am not making sense, ask a question, maybe I can clarify. Maybe I am wrong. Im not beyond admitting that. Im not saying that I am going to go out and use the device as protection, I was just recalling a clinic I had gone attended and wqas wondering if I had remembered my information correctly. My question was whether anyone else had heard of those stats , maybe I was remembering incorrectly.
Some places I found the 24 kn information was:
http://www.pagangear.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=91
http://www.rockrun.com/shop/prod.html?d=2&t=5&p=1619&sid=88c31bc25c16f2c6df71a75761ba4518
One thing I have learned through climbing is that you can never know exactly what will happen in any given situation. Probability may be on your side, but something can always go wrong. That makes knowledge very valuable, and knowing that you should not use my ATC, in the manner we have been discussing, in an emergancy would be usefull at the least. Even more usefull if you could use it.
The one point that I think is worth noting is that BD said that it was not suposed to be used as pro. I sent them an email to ask why.
Sorry guys, Im just curious.
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alexmac
Dec 11, 2006, 6:00 AM
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i guess it is all in how we read thiings, I am sure there is some person out there who will say, "hey watch this" and use it as pro, why , they read it here.
I can see in no spot where you would use your atc as a piece of passive pro, why not just take your pants off and use it as a sling too.
If a BD rep did suggest this (ATC as passive pro), it may have been a joke (I hope).
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playouts1de
Dec 11, 2006, 6:23 AM
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alexmac wrote: i guess it is all in how we read thiings, I am sure there is some person out there who will say, "hey watch this" and use it as pro, why , they read it here.
Point well taken.
alexmac wrote: If a BD rep did suggest this (ATC as passive pro), it may have been a joke (I hope).
As I stated, I think the rep talked about its strength in kn and I interpereted it to mean that it could be used as an emergancy piece. I actually sent BD an email asking about the strength of the ATC related to this issue.
I heard that the ring that holds your chalk bag open is actualy made out of teflon and can be used as a rap ring if youre in a thick spot ;)
KIDDING!
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notch
Dec 11, 2006, 5:17 PM
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Call BD and get the rep fired? That's the stupidest post I've yet read on this site, and that's saying something! I personally know 2 BD sales reps, and not only do they know their product, their input helps to design product In fact, one of them put up some of the hardest and daring trad routes on the east coast. They know a hell of a lot more than just what's on the spec sheet. If one of them says that the keeper loop wire is hella strong, then guess what? They're probably correct! That's a far cry from the rep advising climbers to buy 6 and use them for pro.
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catbird_seat
Dec 11, 2006, 6:29 PM
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What a lame thread. You've all beaten this topic to death. Time to find a new idea for a topic.
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bill413
Dec 11, 2006, 7:01 PM
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catbird_seat wrote: What a lame thread. You've all beaten this topic to death. Time to find a new idea for a topic.
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stymingersfink
Dec 12, 2006, 4:11 AM
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body of ATC, strong (but if i'm using it as pro then i's is seriously fuckin' up, time to quit climbin)
wire on atc, also strong (in and of itself)
the connection between the two --- don't count on it! It will pull out, guaranteed!
and as far as grigri's vs. reverso... i think the grigri would offer better semi-wide options, but who climbs trad with one of them?... so I have to say reverso for wide pro in cracks. Have you seen the way they stack?
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tribaltalon
Dec 12, 2006, 4:17 AM
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lol.. crazy thread. i'm sure the head of the atc would hold as passive pro, but i wouldnt want to take a screamer off of it. i would rather put a sling through the middle of the atc then trust the wire in a insane emergency scenario that would never happen.
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alexmac
Dec 12, 2006, 4:26 AM
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bill413 wrote: catbird_seat wrote: What a lame thread. You've all beaten this topic to death. Time to find a new idea for a topic. So - is the Grigri or the Reverso better for wide cracks?
Trophy!
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