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ill_climber
Dec 17, 2006, 9:04 PM
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Last time I was In fairly high altitudes I experienced a "sickness" that lasted for only one evening. I was very out of shape at the time and had been climbing all day(with a 70 lb pack.) After reading a few articles on AMS, it seems to me that some of the symptoms of AMS are similar to that of physical exhaustion. For example, Vomiting, loss of appitite, headache...etc. Although no one can tell me what i was experiencing at the time, I want to know if there are any solid distinguishing factors between the two?
Any information is greatly appreciated
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kman
Dec 17, 2006, 9:11 PM
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Perhaps you had a combination of both where one was feeding off the other. What altitude where you at and what your highest you had been before that?
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ill_climber
Dec 17, 2006, 9:28 PM
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I was around 10,000 feet but i later acsended to 12,000 feet and had no problems with the symptoms. Also, I have asthma, i dont know if this could be a factor in AMS or not
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dynoho
Dec 17, 2006, 9:35 PM
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No matter what the altitude, carrying a 70lb pack all day will make you feel like crap. That is enough gear for 4 people on an overnight hike. More details are required for an accurate diagnosis of what went wrong.
-Altitude
-Experience at altitude, especially recently.
-Trip Duration
-Hydration
-Physical conditioning
-Specific symptoms
There is a very good chance that you were merely feeling the effects of altitude, compounded by poor conditioning and over exertion. True AMS, which can be life threatening, usually won't occur until well above 10,000 feet, often much higher. Again, more specific details are needed to properly access/guess what happened.
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ill_climber
Dec 17, 2006, 9:47 PM
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-Altitude/10,000
-Experience at altitude, especially recently./little
-Trip Duration/10 days
-Hydration/plenty
-Physical conditioning/some but not enough
-Specific symptoms/ vomiting, headache, loss of appetite
However, my main question is are there any distinct differences that i can watch for next time? Although most people dont experience the extreme forms of AMS such as Cerebral Edema and Pulmonary Edema untill extreme altitude i feel that its still important to look out for.
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dynoho
Dec 17, 2006, 11:46 PM
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I would guess that at those altitudes, you are not at risk from AMS. Although possible, it's not likely. There are symptoms that you and your partner should be aware of and looking for. Here are some....
-Consistent, dry cough
-Vomiting
-Severe headache
-Disorientation/confusion
-Staggered walk or gait
-Labored breathing
There are others, but barring any of these, you were probably experiencing the joys of mountaineering. Have fun.
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reno
Dec 18, 2006, 4:30 AM
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ill_climber wrote: -Altitude/10,000 -Experience at altitude, especially recently./little -Trip Duration/10 days -Hydration/plenty -Physical conditioning/some but not enough -Specific symptoms/ vomiting, headache, loss of appetite
1. The actual altitude doesn't matter so much as how fast you got there, and from where you came. I've read reports of people getting AMS at/around 10K feet, simply because they went from sea level to 10K in too short a time (think: Seattle -> Rainier, or LA -> Whitney... in a day.) To adjust to altitude, your body needs some time.
(Your next question will be "How much time?" to which I shall respond with the standard RC.com climbing information reply: "It Depends.")
2. As I understand, the better overall physical condition you are in, the better you will handle altitude. Perhaps you had a bit of both: Exhaustion AND altitude. Hard to tell now, but in the future, you can often tell the difference by taking a rest day at the same or nealy same altitude. If you feel better after a good night of sleep, it was exhaustion. If not, it's altitude. :)
In reply to: However, my main question is are there any distinct differences that i can watch for next time? Although most people dont experience the extreme forms of AMS such as Cerebral Edema and Pulmonary Edema untill extreme altitude i feel that its still important to look out for.
Sure, it's something to look out for, and nice to see folks thinking about such issues. Smart mountaineers do that.
In the future, you'll be in better shape, so that you can reduce the chance of it being exhaustion.... right? And you'll take an extra day to get acclimiatized to the altitude.... right? And, specifically, you'll be watching for loss or reduction of cognitive capacity. Exhaustion takes its toll and makes PERFORMING the tasks harder (you know, cause you can't lift your arms and all that,) but the mental faculties should still be OK (unless you're making some crazy 30 hour single push, in which case you'd be a better mountaineer than to have to ask the question.) Physically beat is different than mentally beat. AMS affects both, while physical exhaustion affects physical more than mental.
My 2 cents, anyway.... again, hard to tell post hoc.
(This post was edited by reno on Dec 18, 2006, 4:31 AM)
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ebonezercabbage
Dec 19, 2006, 2:20 PM
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I can't say anymore about AMS than what was already said here, but i would point out one thing about being mentally fatigued.
What time of the year where you climbing? Was it sub zero temps? Are you sure you were "very hydrated"? Most people think they are even when they are not even close. Chances are you were hydrated enough for what i am going to say to be irrelevant for you, but still.....
The effects of walking Pneumonia and hypothermia can sometimes look like AMS depending on the severity of the case. Though the latter is often a factor of how hydrated you are ( say of course that you are moving and your body's furnace is burning ), it is a real danger at higher altitudes. I was hiking on a low mountain on the east coast ( aren't they all low? haha) for a long 20 mile round trip for a push in one day that lead us with no water on the summit with 10 miles still ahead of us. It had been extremely cold all day and we were hiking in 18 inches of fresh powder the whole way. Both of us felt ill ( i vomited a few times ) and neither felt like eating. So with pounding headaches we hiked 10 miles back to the car in the dark. 3 hours into that return trip i could feel myself starting to lose it. I was loopy. I started seeing shadows i the woods and i was getting panicy with waves of sudden calms like i just wanted to lie down and take a nap right there on the trail. I was suffering from extreme dehydration and a mild case of hypothermia.
I know this was off topic, but i never miss an op to preach about the importance of planning for enough water for the day and actually drinking it. ( tho i guess i ties in with its symptoms to AMS....)
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trenchdigger
Dec 19, 2006, 2:45 PM
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dynoho wrote: I would guess that at those altitudes, you are not at risk from AMS. Although possible, it's not likely. There are symptoms that you and your partner should be aware of and looking for. Here are some.... -Consistent, dry cough -Vomiting -Severe headache -Disorientation/confusion -Staggered walk or gait -Labored breathing There are others, but barring any of these, you were probably experiencing the joys of mountaineering. Have fun.
Actually these are symptoms of HAPE and HACE, not just AMS.
AMS is clinically diagnosed when the subject is at an altitude over 2400m / 8000ft and has a headache plus at least one of the following symptoms:
- GI upset (loss of appetite, nausea, vomiting)
- fatigue/weakness
- dizziness/light-headedness
- insomnia (more than just the usual frequent waking)
Others are right that diagnosis is difficult because a long day of climbing/hiking can also cause these symptoms. Pay attention to your body and climb smart. AMS can snowball into HAPE or HACE quickly and the only definitive treatment for any altitude related illness is to descend to a lower elevation.
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dynoho
Dec 19, 2006, 3:45 PM
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Right,
Digger is absolutely correct, sorry for the bad info. HAPE and HACE being life threatening and AMS merely being day wrecking in most cases. Thanks for the correction.
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altelis
Dec 19, 2006, 4:11 PM
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just want to call attention to something that digger put up that was missed up till then (and some people just straight up got wrong)-----
AMS doesn't require you to really be all that high----8,000 feet, clinically speaking, is all.....again, you can experience AMS at 8,000 feet
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reno
Dec 19, 2006, 4:14 PM
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altelis wrote: AMS doesn't require you to really be all that high----8,000 feet, clinically speaking, is all.....again, you can experience AMS at 8,000 feet
Just curious, but what's your source for this?
I'm not doubting you.... just curious where you got 8,000 for a number, that's all.
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altelis
Dec 19, 2006, 4:59 PM
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two sources-
Bult Tilton's Wilderness First Aid
and
Solo's WEMT manual (not available except through taking their course, don't have their sources infront of me at the moment)...
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krusher4
Dec 19, 2006, 5:08 PM
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10,000 feet is not altitude dab.
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schveety
Dec 19, 2006, 5:27 PM
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Just to set my experience with AMS, my boyfriend got AMS last year while we were on a hut trip at 11,000 feet in the Rockies (we live at 5,000 feet and regularly go into the mountains, we cross-country skied from 8000 ft to 11500 the day before he got sick, he didn't drink as much water as he usually does, but he is very fit) and so I did a lot of reading up on it.
From what I've read, it can affect anyone, no matter how fit you are or if you've been at the altitude before (unless you've acclimated, which I would assume you could still get it if you get dehydrated and exhausted). From your symptoms and my short experience with AMS, I would say you probably had exhaustion or a mild case of AMS. If you have vomiting and diarrhea caused by AMS, usually the only way to get better is to descend - a headache is something that you can usually work through, but when it gets worse, descending is the best way to get better. And I would think that if you had AMS, it would have lasted for more than one night if you remained at that altitude, but that's just a guess.......
(This post was edited by schveety on Dec 19, 2006, 5:32 PM)
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trenchdigger
Dec 19, 2006, 5:28 PM
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reno wrote: altelis wrote: AMS doesn't require you to really be all that high----8,000 feet, clinically speaking, is all.....again, you can experience AMS at 8,000 feet Just curious, but what's your source for this? I'm not doubting you.... just curious where you got 8,000 for a number, that's all.
Of course it's all just a gradient and everyone reacts differently. Some people would actually be susceptible at lower elevations and others not susceptible until they reach much higher elevations. But most sources of information on the subject seem to define 8000' as the line that defines "High Altitude" in medical terms.
Here's a few googled websites:
http://www.high-altitude-medicine.com/AMS-medical.html#AMS
http://www.basecampmd.com/expguide/ams.shtml
http://www.ismmed.org/...ltitude_tutorial.htm
http://www.healthatoz.com/...ltitude_sickness.jsp
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altelis
Dec 19, 2006, 7:02 PM
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yea, ok, be all macho about "altitude"----i know that in terms of where we can go and play 10,000 feet is about 1/3 of how high we can get. fine. some of us have been a whole lot higher. fine.
stop being a prick and getting some people possibly sick and injured through misinformation----altitude illness can really starts being an issue "as low as" 8,000 feet. the medical community all agrees this is where you really need to start being careful. YES, you can go a lot higher. YES, a lot of people do and have no issues. BUT, as low as 8,000 feet peole who don't take certain precautions (hydration, proper rate of ascent, etc) are more prone to falling ill.
don't let your machismo get in the way---hydrate, take your time, and get as high as this earth lets you....
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