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brotherbbock
Dec 18, 2006, 1:36 AM
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What it is my brothers and sisters. Me and my buddy are going down to potrero chico in a couple of weeks to climb timewave zero. The route is 23 pitches and I have heard the best way to rap the thing is to simul rap in order to do it in a timely manner. I personally have never simul rapped before and was wondering what suggestions/concerns my fellow climbing brethren might have for brotherbbock. I was either going to use my atc or perhaps use a grigri. I am open to suggestions. Thanks everybody. Climb On!
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stevej
Dec 18, 2006, 1:47 AM
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Recently I did a simul rap from Levitation 29 in red rocks, all 11 pitches with just one 70 meter rope. We used grigris. It worked perfectly. My partner for this had done Timewave zero, and used this same technique on that route also. A 70 just barely makes it on that route.
The thing to remember is, always make sure there are nots tied into the end of the rope, and that you both are loading the strands of the rope at all times. ie, both you and your partner have your weight on your grigris, or the anchor, but not one on the rope and one on the anchor. With me?
I would not recommend ATC, because you will not have enough friction, escpecially since you will be going on just one strand, and as you get toward the end of the rope, it will be very hard to hold the brake end. Grigris are awesome for this cause you can just let go and relax if it starts getting hot.
If you are doing timewave in the next few weeks, you will have to simul many pitches also, and still go fast just to make it down before it gets really dark. Best of luck.
ps. remember to untie the knots from the rope ends before you pull it!
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wanlessrm
Dec 18, 2006, 1:52 AM
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What are the two ropes your going to use? Big rope through the chains first. Communication will be most important as well as managing rap station clusterfuck. I know lots of people who carry 6mm line instead of bringing two ropes. If you do that practice first its a bitch to controll speed.
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majid_sabet
Dec 18, 2006, 1:53 AM
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I never heard of simul rap, I done simul climb but I am guessing your using 2 rope each 60 or 70 meter to rap .
Gri Gri is for single rope system and I personally found it unsafe for rap ( Do not want to argue with n00bs on this). Use ATC or 8 or rack.
Best luck on your climbing adventure.
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brotherbbock
Dec 18, 2006, 1:55 AM
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Sounds good steve. Couple more questions; Were you guys side by side as you rapped or was one of you guys higher that the other? Also when you reach the anchors do you just continue to weight the rope until both of you are there, or does on person anchor off before the other? Im just trying to visualize the physics of it all. Thx!
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brotherbbock
Dec 18, 2006, 1:57 AM
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We are using a 70 meter 10.2 mm rope.
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wanlessrm
Dec 18, 2006, 1:58 AM
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Maybe your the noob! It is a single rope system!
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sonso45
Dec 18, 2006, 2:01 AM
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I've simul rapped often, including at PC. One thing I would stress is to use an autoblock, like a klemheist tied below the rappel device. Especially if you use a thinner line, it helps to increase the friction. Not only that, if your partner is knocked unconscious he will not rap off the rope. Of course, a gri gri will do the same, but it is a redundant factor in a potentially scary situation.
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wanlessrm
Dec 18, 2006, 2:01 AM
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Both of you weight the rope till both are tied in and safe. If you comes off early the other goes by by. Communication is the key. I rap side by side if possible to avoid kicking any loose rock on my partner since speed is what your going for.
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majid_sabet
Dec 18, 2006, 2:01 AM
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wanlessrm wrote: Maybe your the noob! It is a single rope system!
I am but do not tell any one.
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stevej
Dec 18, 2006, 2:11 AM
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brotherbbock wrote: Sounds good steve. Couple more questions; Were you guys side by side as you rapped or was one of you guys higher that the other? Also when you reach the anchors do you just continue to weight the rope until both of you are there, or does on person anchor off before the other? Im just trying to visualize the physics of it all. Thx!
We were just above one another. As in his feet were about a meter or so above my head. That way, you are not bouncing off one another like all those gumbies you see windchiming after they clean the draws from certain routes... but that's another tale.
When we reached each anchor, i would clip in with my sling (girth hitched to belay loop with locker on anchor end), still weighting the grigri. Once my partner clipped into the anchor, only then did I unweight the rope and grigri. Then we thread one end of the rope thru the current anchor, and pull it down. This way, we make sure we do not drop the rope, and also have a chance to center it on the anchor and retie the overhand knots at the ends. The overhand knots also theoretically prevent death if one of us was to lose control on the rappel somehow.
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brotherbbock
Dec 18, 2006, 2:15 AM
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Thx steve, I think I got a good idea of your guys technique, sounds like it will work out nicely.
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stevej
Dec 18, 2006, 2:22 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: I never heard of simul rap, I done simul climb but I am guessing your using 2 rope each 60 or 70 meter to rap . Gri Gri is for single rope system and I personally found it unsafe for rap ( Do not want to argue with n00bs on this). Use ATC or 8 or rack. Best luck on your climbing adventure.
Never heard of simul rapping and you are calling people noobs? Thanks for the advice Borat, I will bring my "rack" to rappel next time...
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majid_sabet
Dec 18, 2006, 3:26 AM
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steve, I send you pm
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Dec 18, 2006, 3:26 AM)
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wanlessrm
Dec 18, 2006, 3:29 AM
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Steve I think he has you on this one! (rack)
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philbox
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Dec 18, 2006, 3:45 AM
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stevej wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I never heard of simul rap, I done simul climb but I am guessing your using 2 rope each 60 or 70 meter to rap . Gri Gri is for single rope system and I personally found it unsafe for rap ( Do not want to argue with n00bs on this). Use ATC or 8 or rack. Best luck on your climbing adventure. Never heard of simul rapping and you are calling people noobs? Thanks for the advice Borat, I will bring my "rack" to rappel next time...
Borat, bwahahahahaha, ahhh, yer slaying me here, excellent. 
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ryanb
Dec 18, 2006, 4:15 AM
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I've done this in times where, for one reason or another, we needed to get down in a timely fashion. It is not particulalry safe, and i try and avoid it if possible. That said, Stevel's post seems right on.
We did it with atc's (well a trango piramid in my case...dig those cooling fins) and it does work but a gri gri (or back up knot) would increase the safety margin.
I have also done it with a partner signifigantly (40 lbs) lighter tha me. Rope slippage was a bit of an issue.
Have a good time in mexico.
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majid_sabet
Dec 18, 2006, 5:39 AM
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ryanb wrote: I've done this in times where, for one reason or another, we needed to get down in a timely fashion. It is not particulalry safe, and i try and avoid it if possible. That said, Stevel's post seems right on. We did it with atc's (well a trango piramid in my case...dig those cooling fins) and it does work but a gri gri (or back up knot) would increase the safety margin. I have also done it with a partner signifigantly (40 lbs) lighter tha me. Rope slippage was a bit of an issue. Have a good time in mexico.
Why it is not safe ?
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ryanb
Dec 18, 2006, 6:17 AM
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It essentially doubles the failure modes of normall rappeling and makes the two climbers entirely reliant on each other. With the right partner and in the right situation that can be acceptable but I prefer to avoid it in most situatons. I would advise thinking about it and makeing your own decision.
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majid_sabet
Dec 18, 2006, 6:25 AM
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ryanb wrote: It essentially doubles the failure modes of normall rappeling and makes the two climbers entirely reliant on each other. With the right partner and in the right situation that can be acceptable but I prefer to avoid it in most situatons. I would advise thinking about it and makeing your own decision.
I done in a much better and safer way however I do not want to share the detail cause you still got two people on a same system.
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gonzo
Dec 18, 2006, 6:47 AM
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It's really dangerous. We recently had a top South African female climber who fell while simulrapping. Her partner abbed off the end of rope and she fell about 12m, cracking her helmet and her jaw.
She is a very accomplished climber, she climbed Trango Towers, the central tower of pain and many other routes. This accident happend at one of our small local crags. (By the way, the mistake was mainly due to her climber not tighing a knot in the end of the rope.... so check your partner as he directly affects you.)
Basicaly I see it as a catch-22 you want to simul-rap to save time. But if you are trying to save time in a panicked or hurried situation you are likely to make a mistake and simul-rapping is unforgiving to mistakes.
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majid_sabet
Dec 18, 2006, 6:52 AM
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gonzo wrote: It's really dangerous. We recently had a top South African female climber who fell while simulrapping. Her partner abbed off the end of rope and she fell about 12m, cracking her helmet and her jaw. She is a very accomplished climber, she climbed Trango Towers, the central tower of pain and many other routes. This accident happend at one of our small local crags. (By the way, the mistake was mainly due to her climber not tighing a knot in the end of the rope.... so check your partner as he directly affects you.) Basicaly I see it as a catch-22 you want to simul-rap to save time. But if you are trying to save time in a panicked or hurried situation you are likely to make a mistake and simul-rapping is unforgiving to mistakes.
This is going to be one hot topic, so far my favorit, keep it coming
Dr. Phil are you with us?
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Dec 18, 2006, 6:53 AM)
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jimdavis
Dec 18, 2006, 7:01 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: I never heard of simul rap Use ATC or 8 or rack.
majid_sabet wrote: ryanb wrote: It essentially doubles the failure modes of normall rappeling and makes the two climbers entirely reliant on each other. With the right partner and in the right situation that can be acceptable but I prefer to avoid it in most situatons. I would advise thinking about it and makeing your own decision. however I do not want to share the detail cause you still got two people on a same system.
SO you go from never hearing of it, to an expert in a page??? hahaha!
Oh Majid, good to see you haven't changed.
I'd say go for it, but make sure both you and your partner backup your raps, or use grigri's.
Like one of the first replys said, there will be less friction, and the ride will be quicker....so use 2 biners in those ATC's, or go with the grigri's. I simul-rap on slabs most often; with a b52 on 10mm-ish ropes I don't need the 2 biners, but I do use a backup.
I'd give it a practice on some slabs if you get a chance, all backed up and such. The real trick to it weight and unweight the ropes at the same time to get the counterbalance to work...if your using 2 ropes and have the junction knot, then you can load the "non-pull" rope first, have the junction knot jam on the rings, then have the other climber weight their side. You'll have to unweight the ropes at the same time when you get to the next station.
Some people like to teather themselves to their partner with a cordelette or a few long slings. Whether you do or not shouldn't matter much, I've done it both ways and haven't had a problem with it either way.
There are also some tricks to share the same belay device on doubled ropes, but I don't think it'd be of any advantage to you here...worth learning though if you get an injured partner or something.
Just be careful, and it'll help get you down a lot quicker.
Cheers,
Jim
(This post was edited by jimdavis on Dec 18, 2006, 7:06 AM)
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rickoldskool
Dec 18, 2006, 8:25 AM
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If I my reiterate a couple points already made, then offer you a near death experience.
1. Use a backup klemheist or other friction knot to safely descend.
2. NEVER get off the rope until you are absolutely sure both of you are anchored.
3. GriGri aren't necessary, just use an appropriate device with sufficient friction for rope size, and use the backup.
4. COMMUNICATE! at all stages of the rappel. That means staying close together. It doesn't need to be side by side or one above the other. It isn't a good idea for one party to get too far ahead of the other.
Now my quick tale.
Rapping off of Serenity Crack in Yosemite. Party of 3. Two of us simul rap, the 3rd guy comes down alone.
Last rap to ground we are yucking it up and completely oblivious to what we are doing.
My simul-partner goes on down ahead of me. He gets down so fast that I fail to realize the he is almost off the rope as I'm getting on.
He assumed I was rapping with the other guy, I assume he's waiting for me.
I lean back as he's getting off and zippppppppp........
I fall about 20 feet. My buddy at the anchor realized what was happening and grabbed the rope. Stopped my 130 foot plunge, rope burned his hands in the process.
Saved my life.
DO NOT FUCK AROUND WITH THIS METHOD!
Know exactly what you are doing BEFORE you do it and COMMUNICATE all the way down, with backups.
You should have no problems.
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majid_sabet
Dec 18, 2006, 10:10 AM
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rickoldskool wrote: DO NOT FUCK AROUND WITH THIS METHOD! Know exactly what you are doing BEFORE you do it and COMMUNICATE all the way down, with backups. You should have no problems.
Be nice
This jim bob is not going to like your tone of voice when it comes to word "Death" especially when ATC or Gri Gri is involved.
You see "Death " only happens to n00bs with lack of experience. This guys are way out there up in to advance PHD stuff.
There are no such thing as F$CK Up in climbing.
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