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djnibs
Sep 2, 2002, 11:56 PM
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hey. a buddy of mine only belays using an 8 and he says its great. he says its just as safe as using a grigri (and he thinks its the same). in my opinion, the grigri is much more better than using an 8 to belay. he says if you do some funny stuff with the rope (i don't know what stuff, but he knows) then it will autolock. i think he full of shit. he says i should just use my 8 for belaying instead of buying a grigri (i am goin to buy an atc, eventually, but want a grigri). is there a safe way to use an 8 as a belay?? i thought of using a prussik just above the 8, but still. is there a way?? and is this just as safe as using an atc?? or grigri for that matter?? thanx and climb on
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venezuela
Sep 3, 2002, 12:40 AM
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well, I could say that your buddy is NOT full of shit.
I've heard that, by using some carabiners, you coul turn the 8 into a grigri wannabe device, though I DO NOT aproove of this use (or mis-use, as I see it).
On the other hand, a figure 8 is one of the safests belay devices on the market (second to the dynamic knot). Here in Venezuela, were I live, a lot, and I mean a lot, of people use an 8 to belay (even I do). Some of them, don't even like being belayed with anything else than 8 while climbing up a route.
The figure 8 belay/rappel device has it's pro's and con's (like any other climbing device). as I see it, the good things are: it's safe (really safe: safer than a ATC, since it needs less strenght to lock it), it's easy to use, it's cheap, it's an all-around device. the bad ones are: it gets really hot while rapelling, it doesn't give rope that easilly (harder to give rope than an ATC, it torches the rope.
hope it helps....
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jt512
Sep 3, 2002, 12:55 AM
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Well, this is certainly an unsafe thread. Maybe this question shouldn't be asked in the Beginners forum, eh?
-Jay
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stevematthys
Sep 3, 2002, 2:30 AM
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the grigri is moron proof (for the most part), but it will not work on thin ropes, i do not know of any way to turn the 8 into a auto-locking belay device, and it is probably not intended for that use anyways. just make sure when you belay with it you have it in its "sport mode" if you are using it in "rappel mode" then you will not get the best breaking.
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jt512
Sep 3, 2002, 2:46 AM
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Quote:just make sure when you belay with it you have it in its "sport mode" if you are using it in "rappel mode" then you will not get the best breaking.
No, I think you mean to recommend "belay mode," which is with a bight of rope thru the small hole. "Sport mode" (= death mode) is with the bight of rope thru the large hole. *gulp*
-Jay
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rickoldskool
Sep 3, 2002, 8:17 AM
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HOLY CRAP! If one more person posts a thread beginning with "I heard", I'm gonna sh_t my pants. If all you know is what you "HEARD" then you have no frickin' business giving advice! Enough said.
Quote:he says its just as safe as using a grigri
Not really.
Quote:he says if you do some funny stuff with the rope (i don't know what stuff, but he knows) then it will autolock
There is a method that I'm familiar with called the "Bonatti brake" or "Italian brake". This should only be used when rappeling not for belaying.
Quote:is there a safe way to use an 8 as a belay?
Yes. The safest method for belaying a lead climber was mentioned. Grab a bight of rope, push the loop thru the SMALL hole of the 8, clip your belay biner thru the loop and it works just like any tube type device (it looks more like the old stitch plates). The large end of the 8 just hangs down. If your gonna use this method you might as well buy a real tuber anyway.
The second method uses the 8 in its most common configuration. That is the rope feeding in and out of the large hole and wrapping around the neck of the 8. This is fine for toproping but marginal for belaying a leader. It produces less friction.
Many climbers have used this method, I did. Newer devices have rendered it obsolete.
Third method is STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!
I'll explain it but DON'T do it! Rope enters the large hole, does not wrap around the neck. Instead it runs around the belay biner and back out the large hole of the 8. This is considered the "sport" method. It's a quick way to kill someone you hate.
I recommend buying the gri gri and don't let you partner use you as the guinea pig for any "I heard it works".
[ This Message was edited by: rickoldskool on 2002-09-03 01:18 ]
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overlord
Sep 3, 2002, 9:09 AM
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we call the "sport method" "turbo". me and my buddies only use it ONLY for rappeling with double strands of rope (using single rope, not double ropes). otherwise we usually belay vith 8 because we dont have a grigri or something similar yet. going to buy it though. and yes, 8 does kink the rope a lot.
CLIMB ON
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climbingcowboy
Sep 3, 2002, 10:14 AM
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Unfortnuly your friend should learn more before teaching you things that shouldnt be done like the Sport (death) method. He obivously doesnt know how a gri gri works or possiably even what it is. It is a auto-locking device which means it locks automaticaly when a person falls, this would be great for you guys since your probably just top-roping right now. But what I, as well as most climbers I know or have seen use an ATC it just works great. And your gonna have to get used to them sooner or later. Just have someone experianced show you how to belay. Yes a figure 8 can be used to belay but it is just not the perferred method today. Oh ya not trying to come down on your friend but this is peoples lives were talking about, learn it safly. Go with an ATC or if you wanna use the figure 8 do the way mentioned above by Rickoldskool using the small end. We've all used the 8's but there must be a reason why we all switched over to ATC.
[ This Message was edited by: climbingcowboy on 2002-09-03 04:35 ]
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iridesantacruz
Sep 3, 2002, 1:17 PM
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yeah i agree with venezuela. he is full of $#&@. The figure 8 will actually twist the rope, which is not good. I havent used the gri gri yet, but i use the ATC(air traffic controller). I think its great, but then again im still new and havent tried alot of equipment.
chris
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bumblesbounce
Sep 4, 2002, 12:06 AM
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Figure 8's. I find them easier AND safer. At WIP they use figure 8's (it's a camp) and at the one in Maine I went they used an 8 on the account they couldn't figure out what was wrong with the gri gri. Gri's gri's can be dangerous at anytime. So can 8's. So watch out. Use what YOU are use to and what YOU like so that we don't hear the sad story of an injury because you weren't watching what YOU are doing. Please be carefull. Climb forever!
Fawn
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bouldertoad
Sep 4, 2002, 2:25 AM
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I am not a huge fan of the 8 either. I find that it sucks while belaying as it always wants to climb the rope. I prefer the tube style devices.......the reverso my personal favortie since it does not develop the nasty sharp edge that an atc does.
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stevematthys
Sep 4, 2002, 3:42 AM
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jt512, thanks for the correction. i guess i had the two terms mixed up.
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climbingcowboy
Sep 4, 2002, 4:00 AM
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I dont know how to link things yet but look under the Gear Heads forum at Favorite Belay Device theres alot of info and opinons there it might help ya out.
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billcoe_
Sep 4, 2002, 5:29 AM
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I heard that the CORRECT TERM for that sport mode method is actually "Japanese style". I've seen lots of Japenese climbing that way in the valley and have climbed with a few taking some time to show them the correct way. This is in reference to JT's "Sport mode" (= death mode) is with the bight of rope thru the large hole. *gulp*" (NOW lets take a collect up so RICKOLDSKOL can buy some toilet paper to wipe up the crap since I started this post with the dreaded "I heard"!!!!!)
I use a SMC straight 8 for cragging and toproping. The bight of rope does go through the small end and I use 2 carabiners of the same length. It works awesome like this.
Works great, but I think the tubers and atcs work better than the 8 and I use those for multi-pitch where lighter works best for me. Why use the straight 8 at all you ask?
*Inertia* uh huh.....
And when this one wears out I have another one, brand new and sitting in a box of unused gear, waiting to be pressed into service.
As JT512 correctly argued previously with some other yokels: use the belay loop if you are going to use a figure 8. Don't clip directly to the leg loops waist harness. I have always used the SMC Straight 8 as I can use 2 carabiners in the oblong small hole, non-locking opposed and reversed or 2 locking. I have done this for as long as I can remember, and of course recently there have been a couple of failures and deaths of 8's that have twisted and broken the locker. Use the belay loop and 2 biners: it will never happen. On long milti-pitch climbs and long rappells like rapping off of the Oasis though, (14 rappels I think) every min saved adds up big, so I use a tuber with 1 locker. It's light, strong and fast.
I from what I know: if I was buying a new device, or wanted just 1, I would most likely get the DMM Bug: possibly the Trango Jaws, but more than likely get the Bug as it looks easier to configure and from what I can see outperforms all the other ATC's types in rappeling smoothness and easy of braking a fall on belay.
Bill out
[ This Message was edited by: billcoe_ on 2002-09-28 08:21 ]
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djnibs
Sep 4, 2002, 1:19 PM
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Hey. thanks everyone. i still won't use an 8 for belaying. firstly i don't know how, and i am not too sure my friend does either. so i am goin to stick with what i know. maybe buy a grigri, but most likely goin to go buy an atc. i have a TR course comin up which will teach how to set up TR and how to belay using different devices, so i hope i can learn some new methods there. thanks everyone, and be sure to stay safe. if your not sure, don't do it!!! lol
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radistrad
Sep 4, 2002, 2:00 PM
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Skip the Gri Gri and by an ATC, its far more functional.
Dont belay with an 8 it will twist the heck out of the rope and that is the biggest pain the the butt.
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pwsk
Sep 4, 2002, 2:11 PM
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8....no (originally designed as a rapelling device...therefore...use as a rapelling device)
gri-gri...no (I've seen a friend crater beacause of a lazy belayer using the gri-gri)
ATC...YES (Designed for proper alert belaying, therefore...use as belay device...being alert when climbing keeps you alive)
Simple hey
L.O.D.
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knotrocket
Sep 4, 2002, 2:48 PM
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How does belaying with an 8 impart any more twist on a rope than using an ATC? Are you guys setting up the 8 just like you would to rappell? Or using it as a plate?
p.s. if your belay isn't paying attention, what difference does it make what device they use?
[ This Message was edited by: knotrocket on 2002-09-04 07:50 ]
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thejm
Sep 4, 2002, 4:18 PM
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The difference between the devices is the friction that they produce to the rope.
The 8 is a rappeling device (like pwsk said) and produces less friction to the rope. An 8 should never be use for belay because in some situations it could fails (because of the less friction). Things like "sport mode" make it work like an Atc, so why don't you just buy an Atc.
Also the 8, twist the rope, the ATC doesn't.
The gri-gri isn't "morron proof", it helps a lot with his self locking mechanish but this should never replace your brake hand and a good and reliable belayer.
[ Este Mensaje fue editado por: thejm el 2002-09-04 09:21 ]
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djnibs
Sep 6, 2002, 12:41 AM
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Now i have read all the posts here, and so far it looks like i am goin to get an atc regardless. but another question arises. i have read almost all the posts on belaying/rappeling devices. now, do you think that it is worth my time, and money, to get a reverso??? i have read alot of good things, and not very many bad. its only a couple more bucks than an atc. just to emphasive more, i am getting an atc no matter what. whats your opinion? so far i have an eight, and looking to get an atc, and then either a grigri or a reverso.
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wlderdude
Sep 7, 2002, 6:35 PM
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My partner has a Reverso. He loves it, I hate it. He has to force the rope through to lower or rappel.
I learned to belay on an 8 (rappel style). I still do ocasionaly, but only on top rope where I need to be able to pull salck in fast. I like how smoothly it feeds, although it really can kink the rope up bad. It is really the only way to belay with a static line, which you would only use on top rope, anyways. Those who learned on it love it; those who learned on something that locks off, fear it.
The Reverso I have not fould to be very smooth. Slow, but not smooth. I don't know why he chose it over an ATC, but the extra friction does give me a litele extra confidence in his ability to hold a hard lead fall.
I just hate being lowered on that piece of junk and waiting for him to force the rope through when he rappels.
I would recomend an ATC first, but you might consider one of the other auto-locking belay devices out there before blowing $70.
I have a Wild Country SRC (Single Rope Controller), which I just call my poor man's Gri gri. $35 and comes with a big locking biner. Works well and is really light. I use it when I know I will be holding someone up for a long time or teaching someone to belay. It is not very good for leading since it locks up when giving slack and does not absorb any energy on a fall (ATC's and 8's do). I think the gri gri has the same problems.
But the most important thing is to learn good belay tecnique and follow it religiously.
These are my opinions. Take them for what they are worth and good luck.
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billcoe_
Sep 14, 2002, 4:13 AM
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A figure 8 is as safe as an ATC for belaying. It is also heavier and bulkier. It will clang and smack into your nuts here and there.
I have one and love it. (except the the nut sack smacking part) I have a Tuber and love it also. It's very light for multipitch climbs.
I have 5 or so other devices, but I would get an ATC if I was going to get just 1.
Furthermore, I would buy it from a company that advertised on this site.
I would most definatly NOT get a B-52 ever again. I will try it on my 10.5 tommorrow, but Wednesday it was near terribly stuck while using the 11 mil. I had to muscle it to feed the rope, and it must be set up a certain direction and not reversed (unlike an ATC ot tuber which just gets grabbed and used).
Unlike a gri-gri, it is cheap and light.
Hope that helps.
Bill
Update on the B-52, it really sucks and is poorly designed and IMO unsafe, and to top it off you have to muscle it through on larger ropes, it even binds on 1 of my 2 10.5's. Get the DMM bug, buy any other device - use a link of chain or just wrap the rope around your waist, better than the B-52.
[ This Message was edited by: billcoe_ on 2002-09-28 08:31 ]
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billcoe_
Sep 14, 2002, 4:13 AM
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OPPS POSTED TWICE, DELETE THIS ONE.
[ This Message was edited by: billcoe_ on 2002-09-15 17:35 ]
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daisuke
Sep 15, 2002, 7:13 PM
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you should definately get an ATC, hopefully the kind with teeth on it like the trango jaws or the simond cubik, you get more worth out of one device that way. I myself own the cubik and love it, the jaws side makes it much easier to belay on top rope.
I HATE... figure 8's, twist up my rope... I don't even let ppl use a figure 8 on my rope because of it. and belaying with onein the typical rap configuration is so hard to feed and wears me out so much I gave up on using one.
I love my ATC...
accidents with gri gri's don't happen, stupid ppl happen, the gri gri is the best belay device on the market (mind you belay, not rappell!)
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orbizy
Sep 15, 2002, 8:45 PM
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"Accidents don't happen with a Gri-Gri."
Learn about climbing before you give people a false sense of security about what their equipment is able to do.
Gear does not prevent accidents, knowledgeable climbers do.
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