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Adk
Jan 6, 2007, 6:26 AM
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Would you? How might you want it changed? We all know it has some flaws. Climbs are over rated in some areas and surely underrated in others. East coast VS West coast for example. I've seen climbs rated at a 5.5 that have changed in time, by rock shift and fall and now are 5.8 and 5.10 yet haven't been changed, or at least on paper they haven't been. Should just exposure have it's own rating? I think it would be great to add this independantly. For example, an overhang would have a rating of 5 and a chimney would have a rating of 2. Trees on a face might have lower it to a 1. Yet if there was a tree right next to the overhang the rating would be -5. Maybe you have an overhang at the top of the chimney yet because the overhang exists it's rated a -5. The chimney helps to make you feel good. It's just an idea. I don't have the nails ready for my hands yet so don't break out the hammers yet! LOL What do you think. Does the system need a tweak or is it fine where it is?
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areyoumydude
Jan 6, 2007, 6:34 AM
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I think it's fine. What are these flaws you speak of?
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jt512
Jan 6, 2007, 6:41 AM
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Adk wrote: Would you? How might you want it changed? We all know it has some flaws. Climbs are over rated in some areas and surely underrated in others. East coast VS West coast for example. I've seen climbs rated at a 5.5 that have changed in time, by rock shift and fall and now are 5.8 and 5.10 yet haven't been changed, or at least on paper they haven't been. Should just exposure have it's own rating? I think it would be great to add this independantly. For example, an overhang would have a rating of 5 and a chimney would have a rating of 2. Trees on a face might have lower it to a 1. Yet if there was a tree right next to the overhang the rating would be -5. Maybe you have an overhang at the top of the chimney yet because the overhang exists it's rated a -5. The chimney helps to make you feel good. It's just an idea. I don't have the nails ready for my hands yet so don't break out the hammers yet! LOL What do you think. Does the system need a tweak or is it fine where it is? It needs the following tweak:
Let: i = 1 to n index n climbers' on-sight level j = 0 to m index m + 1 YDS ratings Yij = 1 if the attempt by the ith climber on the jth rated route is a success, or 0 if it is a failure. X1i = the climber's on-sight level at the time of the attempt X2j = the route's rating, after converting letter subgrades to decimals P(Yij) = probability of success of Yij logit(Yij) = log-odds of Y(ij) Then: P(Yij)/[1-P(Yij)] = exp(a + b1*X1i - b2*X2j + b3*Xli*X2j) logit(Yij) = a + b1*X1i - b2*X2j + b3*X1i*X2j Yij = expit(a + b1*X1i - b2*X2j + b3*X1i*X2j) So, as you can see, this the problems of the YDS can easily be solved by using appropriate statistical methodology. Jay
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stymingersfink
Jan 6, 2007, 6:53 AM
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jt512 wrote: Adk wrote: Would you? How might you want it changed? We all know it has some flaws. Climbs are over rated in some areas and surely underrated in others. East coast VS West coast for example. I've seen climbs rated at a 5.5 that have changed in time, by rock shift and fall and now are 5.8 and 5.10 yet haven't been changed, or at least on paper they haven't been. <snip> What do you think. Does the system need a tweak or is it fine where it is? It needs the following tweak: Let: i = 1 to n index n climbers' on-sight level j = 0 to m index m + 1 YDS ratings Yij = 1 if the attempt by the ith climber on the jth rated route is a success, or 0 if it is a failure. X1i = the climber's on-sight level at the time of the attempt X2j = the route's rating, after converting letter subgrades to decimals P(Yij) = probability of success of Yij logit(Yij) = log-odds of Y(ij) Then: P(Yij)/[1-P(Yij)] = exp(a + b1*X1i - b2*X2j + b3*Xli*X2j) logit(Yij) = a + b1*X1i - b2*X2j + b3*X1i*X2j Yij = expit(a + b1*X1i - b2*X2j + b3*X1i*X2j) So, as you can see, this the problems of the YDS can easily be solved by using appropriate statistical methodology. Jay alternatively, east coasters should know that west of the rockies when guidebooks say 5.5 they reallly mean 5.10, adjust from there!
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jt512
Jan 6, 2007, 7:00 AM
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stymingersfink wrote: jt512 wrote: Adk wrote: Would you? How might you want it changed? We all know it has some flaws. Climbs are over rated in some areas and surely underrated in others. East coast VS West coast for example. I've seen climbs rated at a 5.5 that have changed in time, by rock shift and fall and now are 5.8 and 5.10 yet haven't been changed, or at least on paper they haven't been. <snip> What do you think. Does the system need a tweak or is it fine where it is? It needs the following tweak: Let: i = 1 to n index n climbers' on-sight level j = 0 to m index m + 1 YDS ratings Yij = 1 if the attempt by the ith climber on the jth rated route is a success, or 0 if it is a failure. X1i = the climber's on-sight level at the time of the attempt X2j = the route's rating, after converting letter subgrades to decimals P(Yij) = probability of success of Yij logit(Yij) = log-odds of Y(ij) Then: P(Yij)/[1-P(Yij)] = exp(a + b1*X1i - b2*X2j + b3*Xli*X2j) logit(Yij) = a + b1*X1i - b2*X2j + b3*X1i*X2j Yij = expit(a + b1*X1i - b2*X2j + b3*X1i*X2j) So, as you can see, this the problems of the YDS can easily be solved by using appropriate statistical methodology. Jay alternatively, east coasters should know that west of the rockies when guidebooks say 5.5 they reallly mean 5.10, adjust from there! We could just add a term to the model to handle regional effects. Jay
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AngusBeefheart
Jan 6, 2007, 7:03 AM
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We could not call it a decimal system, since it's not. 'I climb a 5.2, 5.2 > 5.16, therefore I'm the greatest climber in the world'
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jt512
Jan 6, 2007, 7:08 AM
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AngusBeefheart wrote: We could not call it a decimal system, since it's not. 'I climb a 5.2, 5.2 > 5.16, therefore I'm the greatest climber in the world' How lame is it to prefix every rating with "5." Jay
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ihategrigris
Jan 6, 2007, 7:28 AM
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jt512 wrote: AngusBeefheart wrote: We could not call it a decimal system, since it's not. 'I climb a 5.2, 5.2 > 5.16, therefore I'm the greatest climber in the world' How lame is it to prefix every rating with "5." Jay The five just helps the grade roll off the tongue a little better. Think about it, imagine if 5.10 shoes were called .10's... pretty ghey, huh? Another, when I start talking about 10s and 11s and 12s, that could be anything! Grades, liquor bottles, ammunition, dick length. By adding the 5 prefix, everyone knows your talking about rock climbing!
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styleboy
Jan 6, 2007, 7:54 AM
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because if you were bragging about climbing a 2.14a we would probably make fun of you and your ability to walk through the park..
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thomasribiere
Jan 6, 2007, 9:40 AM
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^ this makes me remember an excellent and funny old thread! Anyone?
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jh_angel
Jan 6, 2007, 1:30 PM
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Odd, at least for those of us in the Northeast, I've heard we're sandbaggers and everything is harder than the grade compared to out west. Those southerners are softies though -Josh
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8flood8
Jan 6, 2007, 2:46 PM
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i would add another decimal for endurance rating (e.g. for sustained routes... one more wonder routes.. etc) i'd like jt512s formula a little more if it was easier to read, not to mention... too many variables
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charley
Jan 6, 2007, 5:39 PM
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Maybe we should switch to the yos fraction system. I don't mind it the way it is. It's just a guide not carved in stone specific.
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angry
Jan 6, 2007, 5:45 PM
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charley wrote: Maybe we should switch to the yos fraction system. I don't mind it the way it is. It's just a guide not carved in stone specific. According to the back of a box of Nutty Nuggets (generic Grape Nuts) "The difficulty is based on the number of overhangs and small holds available to the climber" That seems fair.
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camhead
Jan 6, 2007, 5:52 PM
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The YDS has never failed me in indicating whether or not a climb is withiin my safe limits, combined with a visual inspection. However, it could definitely use some tweaking for my spraying purposes.
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robreglinski
Jan 6, 2007, 6:31 PM
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learn to use the british system. its far better than your strange "number increases with difficulty" thing we should see more "Scottish modartehardextremlyverydifficult 4c+ ***" routes put up
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salamanizer
Jan 6, 2007, 7:27 PM
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It would be nice to have more clairification in our sub gradeing system (PG13, R, X). For example: It would be nice to know if I were climbing a 5.11R, what exactly the R ment. Does it mean 5.11 (5.6R) or 5.11(5.10d R)? I suppose I could just look up and use my own judgement, but who wants to rely on their own judgement when rock climbing? Another thing that needs a grade tweaking are Offwidths. They need a seperate gradeing system all together. I suggest a gradeing system that goes something like this: 5.hard 5.really hard 5.you're my hero
(This post was edited by salamanizer on Jan 6, 2007, 7:29 PM)
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edl
Jan 6, 2007, 7:32 PM
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If I were to change it I would cast away the number-chasing a,b,c,d subdivisions and replace them with either +'s, -'s, or the absence of both. That way it would more closely resemble it's less specific little brother, the V scale!
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welikoa
Jan 6, 2007, 7:34 PM
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Lets just make it easier, like those cool machines in grade B restaurants that tell you how much of a man you are. 5.1-5.5=My penis is missing 5.6=a Bonaduce 5.7=a clay aiken 5.8=I need to stop gym climbing and get outside so I stop climbing 5.8's because its embarassing.b 5.9= cock blocker. getting better 5.10=Fonzi. 5.11=Hot shit. 5.12=A player (because you know your better than most) 5.13=10 inch wang. 5.14=Alpha male/ you can stir coals of a fire with your dong. 5.15 =BAD MO FO. translation=I was out with this dude, and he wanted to climb a "my penis is missing", he red pointed it and said it felt like a clay aiken. So I had him belay me on a 10 inch wang and killed it so he felt like a little bitch. |
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wzrdgandalf
Jan 6, 2007, 7:49 PM
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welikoa wrote: Lets just make it easier, like those cool machines in grade B restaurants that tell you how much of a man you are. 5.1-5.5=My penis is missing 5.6=a Bonaduce 5.7=a clay aiken 5.8=I need to stop gym climbing and get outside so I stop climbing 5.8's because its embarassing.b 5.9= cock blocker. getting better 5.10=Fonzi. 5.11=Hot shit. 5.12=A player (because you know your better than most) 5.13=10 inch wang. 5.14=Alpha male/ you can stir coals of a fire with your dong. 5.15 =BAD MO FO. translation=I was out with this dude, and he wanted to climb a "my penis is missing", he red pointed it and said it felt like a clay aiken. So I had him belay me on a 10 inch wang and killed it so he felt like a little bitch. haha that is awesome. I seem to remember a forum a long time ago that had a good scale for people who were moving to Colorado and want to have some idea of where they stand there, it went something like this... V1- stairs V2- a parapalegics warmup V3- small childrens warmup V4- a ladder V5- juggy V6- for northeastern V8 climbers V7- you are actually getting some strength V8- alright we can talk to you now V9- a little bit of respect V10- pimp steezos yo V11 and up- I hate you bastards
(This post was edited by wzrdgandalf on Jan 6, 2007, 7:51 PM)
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jeremy11
Jan 6, 2007, 8:26 PM
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camhead wrote: The YDS has never failed me in indicating whether or not a climb is withiin my safe limits, combined with a visual inspection. However, it could definitely use some tweaking for my spraying purposes. agreed read the guidebook description, look at the route, make your decision. some guides have ratings like 5.9R then in the description it says the R part is 5.6. its called subjectivity - there is no way to avoid it and this system works fine, so why change it. I've been scared on 5.6's (more due to runouts, slabby moves, or dirt/moss/wetness/greenbriars/loose rock/snakes) and cruised 5.9's and 5.10's. it all comes back to judgement. Angry - I saw that Nutty Nuggets box to - pretty funny. I'm picturing the rating commitee coming to a FA and counting the small holds and how many overhangs there are and calculating a rating.
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racer999
Jan 6, 2007, 9:03 PM
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In any other sport the numbers tell even a non-particpant the difference between a hack (me) and a god (not me). In running it is pretty obvious that someone running a 2:09 marathon ran a whole lot faster then someone running 2:48 (still respectable). I mean you don't have to run to understand that 39 minutes is a damn long time. But in climbing the difference between 5.10 and 5.13 is only three little tenths. Since no one but a climber actually understands the system it all sounds pretty "close". And 5.13 is only .588% better than 5.10. According to YDS I am within shouting distance of sharma....where's that campus board?
(This post was edited by racer999 on Jan 6, 2007, 9:04 PM)
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areyoumydude
Jan 6, 2007, 9:34 PM
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edl wrote: If I were to change it I would cast away the number-chasing a,b,c,d subdivisions. Dude, Bridwell came up with that on acid. I say we keep it.
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sspssp
Jan 7, 2007, 6:00 AM
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jeremy11 wrote: its called subjectivity - there is no way to avoid it and this system works fine, so why change it. I've been scared on 5.6's (more due to runouts, slabby moves, or dirt/moss/wetness/greenbriars/loose rock/snakes) and cruised 5.9's and 5.10's. it all comes back to judgement. If a 5.6 is scarier than 5.10's, then something could be improved. First, why is the whole pitch rated for a [the] single hardest move? (Historical--bad reason). A 50 foot climb with one 5.10c move gets the same rating as one with 150 feet of sustained 5.10c? The 150 foot route is a much harder lead (one that most "5.10c" leaders couldn't get without hanging), the grade should reflect that. I would use a boulder grade for the hardest over all move and use the Yosemite scale for the difficutly of getting the lead clean. So the first route would be 5.10c/V1 and the second might be 5.11a/V1. Since you might have to be around a "5.11a" leader to actually redpoint the route. I like the idea of adding in the runout 5.11a (5.9R), but I would instead formalize this. Say the [one move] crux of the 50' climb (described above) is thirty feet above a ledge with no possibility of pro and the second 150' climb is a finger crack that would aid at C1+. I would add a L(ead) + or - rating for. So the first climb might only take a 5.10c climber to get it clean (on toprope) but most climbers might want to be around 5.11c (4 letter grades harder) in ability to attempt it. The second climb, while harder to get clean is [almost] totally safe. So the final rating of the two climbs might be: 5.10c/V1/L+4 and 5.11a/V1/L-10
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bill413
Jan 8, 2007, 2:43 PM
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salamanizer wrote: It would be nice to have more clairification in our sub gradeing system (PG13, R, X). For example: It would be nice to know if I were climbing a 5.11R, what exactly the R ment. It means you will get hurt.
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