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First lead aid solo advice EDIT:TRIP REPORT
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joeforte


Jan 14, 2007, 7:42 PM
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First lead aid solo advice EDIT:TRIP REPORT
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Ok, so I am going crazy with no snow, and no rock partners, so tomorrow I am going to learn to solo aid at a local 60 ft high quartzite crag. Here is my plan. Please critique/ give pointers!

1. Build anchor on top of climb and drop a rope for backup fig eights.
2. Rap off, build big anchor on the bottom for an upward pull. (maybe sling a big block or a tree?
3. Use "standard aid sequence", periodically clipping into best pieces as pro.
4. I plan on feeding myself slack using a clove around two lockers. Is this OK?
5. I also have a cinch that I toprope solo with. Can this be used instead of the clove for solo lead belay?
6. I plan on doing this on hard crack climbs. If I can free a few moves, is this ok while aid soloing?

Forecast for tomorrow is 49 and rain. Sounds like a perfect day to learn SOLO AID!!!!!!

I AM SO EXCITED I JUST MIGHT GO START BY HEADLAMP!!!!!


(This post was edited by joeforte on Jan 15, 2007, 6:13 PM)


dr_feelgood


Jan 14, 2007, 7:59 PM
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Re: [joeforte] First lead solo checklist and advice needed [In reply to]
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Throw a screamer on your bottom anchor... If a piece blows, it'll reduce the shock on the rest of your pieces as you ride the air bike.
Try to keep your Aiders, daisies, and ropes in some sort of organization... saves time.


joeforte


Jan 14, 2007, 8:03 PM
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Re: [dr_feelgood] First lead solo checklist and advice needed [In reply to]
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What kind on knot would you use to tie your bottom anchor short to a screamer? or would you just locker or tie directly into the screamer? I'm thinking of a fig.8 on a bight to tie the rope in short with the screamer.


dr_feelgood


Jan 14, 2007, 8:10 PM
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Re: [joeforte] First lead solo checklist and advice needed [In reply to]
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I just throw lockers from my anchor to the screamer to the rope...


jeremy11


Jan 14, 2007, 8:32 PM
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for a screamer on a tree anchor I usually just clip it with lockers to two butterfly knots in the rope (which is wrapped a few times around the tree and tied shut) or I've also put a separate piece of webbing or cord around the tree and clipped the screamer to that and a butterfly on the rope. make sure to leave some slack for the screamer to open up before the rope catches. just estimate.


joeforte


Jan 14, 2007, 9:44 PM
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Re: [jeremy11] First lead solo checklist and advice needed [In reply to]
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Has anyone used the cinch as a lead solo device? (with a clove backup of course!) Is a chest harness usefull/necessary?


majid_sabet


Jan 14, 2007, 10:24 PM
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Re: [joeforte] First lead solo checklist and advice needed [In reply to]
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The way you are asking people in RC I guess you aint ready for solo, just do not hurt yourself.


dr_feelgood


Jan 14, 2007, 11:17 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] First lead solo checklist and advice needed [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
The way you are asking people in RC I guess you aint ready for solo, just do not hurt yourself.
How's your car doing? Insurance going to pay for animal damages?


moose_droppings


Jan 14, 2007, 11:18 PM
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Re: [joeforte] First lead solo checklist and advice needed [In reply to]
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You'll be plenty safe with a backup TR. Maybe a little more experience in the clusterfvck department also. Smile

If your anchor is a ways back from the wall, make sure your 1st piece of pro can take a pull in an outward direction (multi directional) or you could zipper out a few more above this 1st piece if you fall.

I've never owned or used a cinch so I don't know if rigging one with a chest harness is advantageous or not. It helped me with feeding line when I soloed with a rocker. Now I use a soloist and it too requires a chest harness. A chest harness can help from hitting head 1st when you take flight. Wear a helmet also, and don't look at your piece as you test it.

Remember, aiding in the rain with a bar of soap is clean fun.

Edited to add,
In reply to:
How's your car doing? Insurance going to pay for animal damages?
I seen that too Majid. Smile


(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Jan 14, 2007, 11:19 PM)


joeforte


Jan 15, 2007, 5:44 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] First lead solo checklist and advice needed [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
The way you are asking people in RC I guess you aint ready for solo, just do not hurt yourself.

I am just using RC.com as a resource to gain helpful tips from fellow climbers who may have used this technique before. I don't believe there is anything wrong with this. I taught myself how to set anchors, how to lead trad, and today I learned how to aid solo, Which I believe is a very important technique to know! It's worth knowing even just for self rescue. RC.com has been a great resource to me... even when 99% of it is taken with a grain of salt.

THANK YOU to anyone who has helped someone out on this site!


healyje


Jan 15, 2007, 5:53 PM
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Re: [joeforte] First lead solo checklist and advice needed [In reply to]
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I believe Malcolm would prefer you not use the Cinch for soloing. Stick with a grigri or Silent Partner...


joeforte


Jan 15, 2007, 6:06 PM
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TRIP REPORT:

The day was beautiful. Foggy, drizzly and around 45 all day.

Wore steeltoe boots and leather work gloves with fingertips cut off.

Dropped a fixed line on a 5.8 crack, rapped in, built a bomber bottom anchor and used my cinch to pay slack, with a clove on a locker on double slings on the harness to back it all up.

Pay slack in the cinch every move, pay out large chunks with the clove every 4-5 moves or so. All of this while moving a clove up the fixed line, it turned out to be too monotenous, so I back cleaned the pieces and just pretty much toprope soloed the rest.

It was beautiful just to be out there hanging on the wall, placing pro, messing around with stacking nuts and odd placements. Prolly something I couldn't possibly talk any of my partners into doing, so solo was perfect.

I packed up my stuff, and made my way down the cliff till I got to this climb called the GREEN SLIME. The FA was in the early 80's, and I'm not sure if it has been climbed much since. The photocopied guide says it's A1. I see a big boulder at the bottom. There's my belayer!

I slung the boulder, equalized it with a bomber upward pull nut and a slung knob. The first piece was a small nut, so I equalized it with a cam and cloved the rope into them both to tension the bottom anchor and not shock load it if I were to fall.

The "GREEN SLIME" turned out to be just that, allong with nut placements between Jenga bricks of quartzite. I got about half way up it, and it started raining hard. It was about right then that I realized I forgot my helmet. I was very satisfied with what I had done so far that day, so I decided not to push my luck, and down/back aided what I had just led. This was a learning experience in itself!

All together a great day on the rock... I think I'm hooked! I think the green slime might go tomorrow!


(This post was edited by joeforte on Jan 15, 2007, 6:23 PM)


healyje


Jan 15, 2007, 6:23 PM
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Good job getting out and trying something...

Please do reconsider the Cinch. It's fine while you have a top rope, but probably not what you want for being out on a lead...


joeforte


Jan 15, 2007, 6:30 PM
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Re: [healyje] First lead solo checklist and advice needed [In reply to]
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How would it differ from a grigri? You don't even have to modify it. Anyway, I'm backing it up with a clove hitch and keeping it oriented correctly with a chest harness.


healyje


Jan 15, 2007, 7:12 PM
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There is just little experience with it and Malcolm, who makes them and is around here as 'maldaly', has asked that folks not use them this way. You're learning new things, I'm just suggesting you go with what many folks before you have been using quite successfully. No need to learn new things and push unproven gear at the same time...


joeforte


Jan 15, 2007, 7:27 PM
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I appreciate your concern. I know that a clove hitch is a proven method, and that is what is backing me up. The cinch is merely an easier way to control my lead rope length, before the clove, and should it fail to lock up somehow, the clove is there. Besides, someone had to be the first to solo with a grigri, and it wasn't "proven" or "recomended".

I plan on buying a huge mallion to attach the cinch and tying the clove backup around two lockers side by side, on two independent slings, one girthed to my swami and the other to my lower (leg loop) attachment point. The cinch will also be held upright by my chest harness.


jalapeno


Jan 15, 2007, 7:42 PM
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i think what everyone is saying is not that it hasnt been done so you shouldnt do it, but actually that the manufacurer(sp?) has said that its flat out not that safe to do. i believe i remember reading on some threads on RC that a cinch is just not safe to use when leading.


joeforte


Jan 15, 2007, 8:09 PM
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Can anyone explain why this system would be any more dangerous than using a grigri? I'm very curious as to what the problem could be. I like to understand the systems I use, not just take someone else's word.


jabtocrag


Jan 15, 2007, 8:18 PM
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joeforte wrote:
Can anyone explain why this system would be any more dangerous than using a grigri? I'm very curious as to what the problem could be. I like to understand the systems I use, not just take someone else's word.

Try PMing maldaly with your questions about the cinch.


dr_feelgood


Jan 15, 2007, 8:48 PM
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jabtocrag wrote:
joeforte wrote:
Can anyone explain why this system would be any more dangerous than using a grigri? I'm very curious as to what the problem could be. I like to understand the systems I use, not just take someone else's word.

Try PMing maldaly with your questions about the cinch.
IIRC the thing breaks when loaded above 7kn... Don't quote me on that.


joeforte


Jan 15, 2007, 8:49 PM
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I've read his response to this same question in other threads. He is legally bound to anything he might post about his product, so he cannot give any info which might result in someone using the device for a use it is NOT rated for. Therefore he is propably the last person that could give any input on the subject. Just out of respect, I'd rather not bring him into this, even though he is smart enough not to say anything that would encourage this use anyway. Now maybe if he had a friend that wasn't legally bound, but still knew the cinch well.

Back to the question...AGAIN:

Can anyone explain why this system would be any more dangerous than using a grigri, when backed up by a clove hitch?


healyje


Jan 15, 2007, 8:50 PM
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joeforte wrote:
Can anyone explain why this system would be any more dangerous than using a grigri? I'm very curious as to what the problem could be. I like to understand the systems I use, not just take someone else's word.

To be honest, you came here asking advice. I've been roped soloing steady, like 50% of my climbing, for thirty years now. Malcolm, who is Trango, has been climbing longer than me and has more experience in both climbing and engineering than I. You might want to consider listening versus pushing back on this point. I'm not posting to hear myself think, but hey, like I said, when it comes to roped soloing the primary rule is if you're up for doing it the decisions should be all yours, so have at it...


joeforte


Jan 15, 2007, 9:39 PM
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Wow, I would expect a belay device to hold more than 7kn before breaking. I do recall reading directly on the trango website that the cinch will slip dynamically and give a soft catch on smaller diameter ropes or during high impact forces. Maybe this slippage is what allows the device to never reach 7kn of force?

I'd rather discuss the mechanics of the system, than fight over what is "rated" or "tested". I would never expect a device to function beyond what it was designed for, let alone trust my life to it! I am backed up when I'm doing this. I am experimenting with mechanical systems. Thats all I wanted to discus!

Oh and for all you naysayers..... At least if it all fails, you can use RC.com to document it! Tongue


stymingersfink


Jan 16, 2007, 3:38 PM
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joeforte wrote:
Back to the question...AGAIN:

Can anyone explain why this system would be any more dangerous than using a grigri, when backed up by a clove hitch?

Because you're still a gumby at aid-climbing, and will be until you top out on a climb tall enough to take more than a day or two.

Because you have a head hard enough to space wearing a helmet when teaching yourself how to do a new technique, the first rule of said technique being "helmet, or hell met".

Because the designer, engineer and marketer has SPECIFICALLY INDICATED that such use is NOT RECOMMENDED. Your experience level vs. mal's, and you're going with YOURS? You don't even have enough experience to know that you're making a poor decision there.

If you're going to be testing the limits of gear, sometimes the safest place to do so is more than a couple of rope lengths off the ground, on terrain steep enough that a fall of double a full rope length will not result in striking features or the ground. This is definitely not your case. Cease. Desist.

You don't have trade your cinch in for a grigri, solo-aid, soloist or other device tried and true for solo leading. Just purchase another device, one acceptable to those who have the experience to make the call.. you can still use your cinch for other thingsSmile

If, five years from now, someone like Ammon were to come out and say "Soloed everything with it for the past five years, a thousand pitches or more" perhaps more people might feel comfortable with what you're trying to do, but he hasn't and we're not.

If you can't respect those with more experience than yourself (mal, for instance), perhaps you should find another hobby.









Otherwise, Kudos for getting out there and getting after it. Of all styles of climbing, only ice climbing is more funWink


ericameyers


Jan 16, 2007, 11:33 PM
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Re: [joeforte] First lead aid solo advice EDIT:TRIP REPORT [In reply to]
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I don't think that I understand this process... so the rope is anchored at the bottom. While you climb, does the excess rope just hang?


Also, I understand how a clove hitch would work, but how would a grigri/cinch be set up for feeding the rope downward to give yourself slack yet still catch a lead fall?


I'm having a hard time picturing solo lead... thinking about the aiding part only confuses me more


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